What is the point in HRK

[From Despair To Where?]

My feelings with HRK is that after the promise of 2011-13, he's not progressed as a player. Maybe it was the bulking up that did for him, maybe it's the tactics or the role that he's being asked to play, I don't know but his play seems to lack that drive or directness that we saw previously.

Stats are misleading. The stats tell me that HRK has had more impact than Pog this season. The evidence of going to games is that when things aren't going for Pog, he still puts in a shift and tries to make things happen, he occupies the defender and gives him something to think about which, in itself, can have an influence on the game. When things aren't going for HRK, it's like we're playing with 10 men.

Maybe it's a languid style that makes it look like a lack of effort but fans will forgive players a lot of things if they are seen to be putting in the effort and HRK, for all his good qualities, doesn't come across like that and that is the root cause of all the antipathy towards him, a perceived lack of effort, it's like he's playing within himself.

Balanced argument there FDTW and broadly fits in with my feeling. The touting of his services like a cheap hooker by his agent/brother after we were relegated also didn't do him any favours with the fans (IMHO).

I agree with the point about his agent/wages and it certainly left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. He has that millstone round his neck. If you are in the top three earners at the club, there is an expectation that you are one of the top 3 performers

Nothing would please me more than to see him contribute 15 goals and assists a season and we know he has the potential to achieve that year in, year out. The trouble is thought that he's nearly 26 so he should be starting to hit his prime but he's not half the player he was at 23, and in the context of the squad, he is a senior player both in age and experience At what age do you stop being a player with potential and become one who's not reached his potential.

[Angry Shed Sex]

At what age do you stop being a player with potential and become one who's not reached his potential.

I'm sure Snowball can enlighten us on that.

[From Despair To Where?]

Well, for context, Pog was top scoring in and winning the UEFA Cup at the age HRK is now.


In fairness, that tells you more about how much Pog's career has died on it's arse since he joined us than anything about young Hal.

[Snowball]

Snowball, Snowball136, Snowball69 and Snowball666 this morning.

5th March 2011

Poor Old Shane will have bits hanging off him by the season-end, but brilliant again today and two goals, now second in the top-scorers table and already scored 21 goals this season

17 League
02 Cup
02 International.


Looks like he might just make a 20-goal a season-player after all

[Snowball]

At what age do you stop being a player with potential and become one who's not reached his potential.

I'm sure Snowball can enlighten us on that.

Wasn't Tony Book 30, playing non-league when discovered by Plymouth,
ended up at Man City, became their Captain and won the league etc?

Jay deMerit was playing non-league, joined Watford almost 25 years old.

[From Despair To Where?]

Jay DeMerit was playing college football and then in the MLS development league until the year before he signed for Watford. The non league to World Cup story is a great one but not the whole picture by any stretch of the imagination. He came over to Britain at the age of 24 and played 2 non league games before getting into the Championship.

[Ian Royal]

Tell us again how Long is a 10 goal a season man in the PL...

It doesn't say "10 Premiership Goals", it never did. It says 10 goals a season player.

2011-12 09 Goals
2012-13 13 Goals
2013-14 08 Goals

2011-14 30 Goals = 10 Goal average

Firstly, are you therefore going to concede that you were wrong when this season ends and his average plummets?

Secondly, you've included international goals haven't you?

Of course he has, it manipulates the figures to prove his point.

Just in clarification of where I stand... when you say someone is a 10 goals a season PL player. I expect them to manage a modal average of 10+ in the Premier League. And whilst I'm not going to be picky and say cup goals shouldn't count, I'd expect League goals to account for at least 75% of the total. International and you're just taking the piss.

So essentially, (though why the hell we're talking about this I don't know) Long has failed to meet snowball's predicted quality on four out of six of his seasons as a senior player and isn't going to make it for the current one either. And one of the ones where he does meet the criteria is slightly dubious.

[Snowball]

Jay DeMerit was playing college football and then in the MLS development league until the year before he signed for Watford. The non league to World Cup story is a great one but not the whole picture by any stretch of the imagination. He came over to Britain at the age of 24 and played 2 non league games before getting into the Championship.

It is nevertheless true he couldn't get a professional gig and was almost 25 when Watford gave him his chance.

WIKI

Early career

DeMerit was a three-sport high school athlete in Wisconsin, where he participated in basketball and track in addition to soccer. He attended Bay Port High School and graduated in 1998.

DeMerit played college soccer at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where he moved from playing forward to defender. While in college, DeMerit formed part of a defensive backline that helped lead the team into the NCAA playoffs in 2000. Although he played with Chicago Fire Premier, the development team of the Chicago Fire in the USL Premier Development League, he was not drafted or signed by any Major League Soccer clubs following graduation from college.

After spending some time working as a bartender, DeMerit took the advice of a former European teammate and decided to take advantage of his European Union work status (due to his Danish grandfather) by moving to England in 2003 with only $1,800, in an attempt to find a club to play for. He started off playing in the ninth tier of English football for Southall, earning only £40 a week.

In July 2004, DeMerit joined Northwood, a seventh-tier side, to play in some of their pre-season matches. Northwood played Watford, then a Football League Championship team, in their second pre-season match. During the course of the match, DeMerit impressed then Watford manager Ray Lewington enough to earn a two-week trial. Following the trial, DeMerit signed a one-year contract with Watford to play in their 2004–05 season.

[Snowball]

Royal Pen!s, I have ALWAYS included cup goals and international goals.

(Long’s) been on borrowed time here for years. He finishes seasons relatively well, but goes back to shit at the start of the next one. He didn't really seem to do anything to justify his starting place in pre-season compared to Church.

That was the season he scored 25 or so goals.

[Ian Royal]

Royal Pen!s, I have ALWAYS included cup goals and international goals.

(Long’s) been on borrowed time here for years. He finishes seasons relatively well, but goes back to shit at the start of the next one. He didn't really seem to do anything to justify his starting place in pre-season compared to Church.

That was the season he scored 25 or so goals.

1) We've noticed you always include them to boost Long's performance and consistently told you you're taking the piss.

2) That quote from me doesn't even remotely say that Long isn't fit to clean Church's boots. It's not even really a particular endorsement of Church.

[From Despair To Where?]

Jay DeMerit was playing college football and then in the MLS development league until the year before he signed for Watford. The non league to World Cup story is a great one but not the whole picture by any stretch of the imagination. He came over to Britain at the age of 24 and played 2 non league games before getting into the Championship.

It is nevertheless true he couldn't get a professional gig and was almost 25 when Watford gave him his chance.
R
WIKI

Early career

DeMerit was a three-sport high school athlete in Wisconsin, where he participated in basketball and track in addition to soccer. He attended Bay Port High School and graduated in 1998.

DeMerit played college soccer at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where he moved from playing forward to defender. While in college, DeMerit formed part of a defensive backline that helped lead the team into the NCAA playoffs in 2000. Although he played with Chicago Fire Premier, the development team of the Chicago Fire in the USL Premier Development League, he was not drafted or signed by any Major League Soccer clubs following graduation from college.

After spending some time working as a bartender, DeMerit took the advice of a former European teammate and decided to take advantage of his European Union work status (due to his Danish grandfather) by moving to England in 2003 with only $1,800, in an attempt to find a club to play for. He started off playing in the ninth tier of English football for Southall, earning only £40 a week.

In July 2004, DeMerit joined Northwood, a seventh-tier side, to play in some of their pre-season matches. Northwood played Watford, then a Football League Championship team, in their second pre-season match. During the course of the match, DeMerit impressed then Watford manager Ray Lewington enough to earn a two-week trial. Following the trial, DeMerit signed a one-year contract with Watford to play in their 2004–05 season.

He was hardly slogging his arse around the non league wilderness. He was playing non league for 6 months having spent the previous 3 years playing at a level akin to League 2.

[Ouroboros]

I'm perfectly willing to concede that Long turned out to be a better player than I thought he would, by some distance, and that Snowball was much closer to assessing his potential and eventual ability than I was.

Yep - I thought he was pretty useless and he came (modestly) good.

But your prediction was wrong and it's risible to suggest otherwise.

[Ian Royal]

but but but

STATATTACK!!!!!

[Snowball]

but but but

STATATTACK!!!!!

You are such a girl. Go have your cocoa, a quick w@nk and go to bed

[Hoop Blah]

I had a very quick search in the Time for a Change thread for these suggestions that Church was better than Long and the only interesting bit I stumbled across was Snowball throwing around stats to show that Church and Manset were a good set of backup strikers for Long and Hunt with promising records (great goals per minute ratios of course).

[SCIAG]

I had a very quick search in the Time for a Change thread for these suggestions that Church was better than Long and the only interesting bit I stumbled across was Snowball throwing around stats to show that Church and Manset were a good set of backup strikers for Long and Hunt with promising records (great goals per minute ratios of course).

On page one, there's a few comments about how Church should get a run in the team ahead of Long after he missed a string of sitters. Bit different from saying he's a much better player.

I do think Church's development has been particularly disappointing. He should have been a much better player than Long - longer in professional academies, spotted by Reading younger, better technique - but he just didn't have the mentality at all.

I was a big fan of Long from the age of 17-21ish, and just as I started to lose faith, he became a fantastic goalscorer. At the time, I probably said Church will be a better striker than Long, and someone who dug hard enough could probably find some ridiculous quotes from me (with hindsight). Oops.

There's also an absolute gem from Jay on page one of that thread:

Church and Hunt for me are a much better partnership, yet to be proved on the pitch

[Hoop Blah]

As I said at the time I just don't think Church has any outstanding ability to cause enough of a threat at this level. as you say, and I think Snowball has suggested the same, he also doesn't seem to have the killer instinct or mental toughness to make things happen for him.

Having said that, at the time of the long Long debate, there was a strong argument for swapping out Long for Church early on during his ineffective spell when we were struggling to score goals. That doesn't mean Church was better, just that he might've been the better option at the time (a bit like when Pelligrini dropped Joe Hart).

[Ian Royal]

As I said at the time I just don't think Church has any outstanding ability to cause enough of a threat at this level. as you say, and I think Snowball has suggested the same, he also doesn't seem to have the killer instinct or mental toughness to make things happen for him.

Having said that, at the time of the long Long debate, there was a strong argument for swapping out Long for Church early on during his ineffective spell when we were struggling to score goals. That doesn't mean Church was better, just that he might've been the better option at the time (a bit like when Pelligrini dropped Joe Hart).

Yeah, as I recall, Church had just come off the back of a decent breakthrough season and OK in pre-season games. While Long had finished the previous season ok having been poor for much of it, not done a lot in pre-season games and then been quite poor when given a run of games upfront at the start of the season. Obviously the persistence with him paid off and the remaining 5-6 months of the season he was on fire.

I don't think anyone thought Church was particularly good (yet), just that he'd probably done more to deserve the chance and was more of a complete player in the making.

[Snowball]

Found the original "10 Prem Goals" post by me.

this was in responses to someone saying that if RFC got promoted the
club would dump Shane

You might be right, and he will then become a top player elsewhere

I go on record as saying if he leaves Reading and avoids a serious injury he will score

10 Premiership goals
or
20 Championship goals
or
30 League One goals

in a season.

It's totally understandable that he doesn't shift Doyle or Hunt from their top-two striker positions
but I think if he had an extended run in a championship side he would be a decent striker

You may now take the p!ss, as is your wont. A few morons will say he has had an extended run, but he hasn't.

I think the best he's had is 3-4 games

See those "ors"? Shane clearly broke the 20-goal mark in the championship so that's a yes.

True he has never scored ten Prem goals, but he's had some horrible injuries

I also said (in February 2009) that he would be a premiership player and would eventually out-score Doyle

I'd call that pretty-damn good predicting especially when I was up against this:

Royal Lady = Shane isn't a good player imo. He's had 4 years to prove himself and he hasn't. Some of his goals have been lucky, some have been pretty quality, but that's not good enough at this level, let alone in the Premiership. And if he *was* that good, how come he's never been linked with any other clubs!

Ian Royal = Long has been dire almost every time he has started. He has a poor first touch and poor decision making. His record is not really in the least bit impressive, he just doesn't score enough. I think we should get rid.

Baines = Nice lad. Completely out of his depth. Cox, Henderson and Tyson were all >>>>> Long

rg6Royal = OK Long sometimes is a decent impact sub but he cannot run with the ball and just falls over. He has however scored some important goals so that has to be taken into account as a positive. I still don't think he is good enough at this level though.


Hoop Blah = Hilarious… Long isn't as good a player as Lita. However, for some of his time here he's been the more effective of the two because Coppell has seemingly managed to get the best out of him (which still doesn't equate to much in my eyes). Lita on the other hand has rarely played to his full potential because we've been lucky enough to two forwards playing better than him on a regular basis and he's not the type of player to deal well with that situation.

Riskit for a Biscuit = I think the best thing for Long would be to look for first team football elsewhere. He's not a championship player as he simply is not good enough to command a regular role in the first team. As someone has previously stated, he demonstrates a complete lack of ability and does not possess a footballing brain. He can't anticipate well enough how plays are going to carry out, and he's neither really skillful or pacey, which are two traits that are important for strikers in the modern game.

Schards2 = I cannot believe he will ever be a 20 goals a season player at Conference standard or higher because he, simply, isn't very good.

Ian Royal again = In one way I would like to see Long start for the rest of the season, just so we can see Snowball is so utterly wrong in his assessment of Long. Unfortunately that would mean we'd probably fail to make the Play offs, so I guess it's for the best he won’t.

[Ian Royal]

I'm well aware Long came good in his last season for us and I was wrong about him in that regard. It cost me £50 and I just accepted it with (IMO) decent grace. But it's nice to see you've finally acknowledged you were wrong about his PL scoring ability.