Sin-bins to be discussed

[TBM]

... because its not just for commiting a foul in the penalty area, its for doing so to stop the other person having a clear/obvious goal scoring chance.

I get that, but the penalty gives that chance back to the attacker

[Terminal Boardom]

I don't understand why games are not fully reviewed by the FA after the event. In the top flight there are literally dozens of camera angles so there is no reason why retrospective action can not be taken. Take the two recent examples with Liverpool. In the Chelsea game, Suarez should have been given a penalty. Whereas you can't replay the game or deduct/award points, there could be an automatic ban for the Chelsea player. The same would apply to Sterling in the game against Stoke. No way a pen but it was given. Give Sterling a 3 match ban. If this was repeated throughout a season, clubs would have to take a stand on things like simulation especially if bans increased depending on the number of times players had cheated.

The only drawback as I see it is getting a panel to unilaterally agree.

[stealthpapes]

... because its not just for commiting a foul in the penalty area, its for doing so to stop the other person having a clear/obvious goal scoring chance.

I get that, but the penalty gives that chance back to the attacker

[PieEater]

TBM what about the Suarez hand ball at the world cup (Uraguay v Ghana) , a sending off and a penalty wasn't enough justice on that occasion.

[TBM]

TBM what about the Suarez hand ball at the world cup (Uraguay v Ghana) , a sending off and a penalty wasn't enough justice on that occasion.

Yeah but i'm not sure that fits with my argument. Ghana had the chance again to score but he hit the bar.

[PieEater]

I'm saying that there's different ends of the scale from over punishment to under punishment, when a penalty is missed the sending off isn't enough punishment when a certain goal is denied. In the Ghana case, even if they'd score I'd want Suarez banned for 3 matches after what he did.

I'd be happy to have more players sent off if it stopped cheating.

[TBM]

I'm saying that there's different ends of the scale from over punishment to under punishment, when a penalty is missed the sending off isn't enough punishment when a certain goal is denied. In the Ghana case, even if they'd score I'd want Suarez banned for 3 matches after what he did.

I'd be happy to have more players sent off if it stopped cheating.

But sending Suarez off didn't stop him from cheating

My suggestion was that if a penalty is scored then nothing is lost as the attacking team still get that goal they *might* have scored - so just give the defender a 15min sin-bin for the foul and the game can continue 11v11. If the penalty is missed the the red card stands and its 11v10

Unless obviously it was a red card offence but i'm talking more for things like a shirt pull etc

[PieEater]

So what is the disincentive for everyone to play as keeper for the last few minutes of a game, they could deny all certain goals by handball then get a chance at saving a pen.

[TBM]

So what is the disincentive for everyone to play as keeper for the last few minutes of a game, they could deny all certain goals by handball then get a chance at saving a pen.

They could do that now too with or without sin bins - you even pointed to an example of this with Suarez v Ghana

[Sanguine]

TBM, your suggestion would see a sharp increase in cynical fouls. This wouldn't be good for the game. Simple as that.

80th minute, cup tie, team is 1-0 up. Opposition attacker breaks through the line into the box. Why wouldn't a defender bring him down?

If they miss the resulting penalty, the team that is leading only has to play 10 minutes with 10 men. If they score - well he was through on goal and likely to score anyway. Risk worth taking and they have 10 minutes with 11 men to try to grab the lead again.

A penalty and a red card isn't 'punishing them twice', it's one punishment.

[Bandini]

Reading page 1 I felt that I was being punished more than twice.

[Vision]

I don't think Puncheon style penalty incompetence should have an effect on the punishment for an offence which denies a goal scoring opportunity.

However I do think that there should be some consideration given to a deliberate cynical "professional foul" rather than a mistimed tackle which denies a clear goal scoring opportunity. It's puts the onus back on referees to interpret what is cynical as well as what is a foul in the first place which will no doubt cause a few problems but certainly a 15 minute sin bin for a mistimed challenge might be an alternative solution.

Referees do tend to make the distimction between a deliberate cynical handball in the penalty area and one where a goal bound shot hits a players arm that is slightly away from their body. The latter isn't always a sending of whilst the former is. I don't see why the same isn't applied to fouls really.

[TBM]

I don't think Puncheon style penalty incompetence should have an effect on the punishment for an offence which denies a goal scoring opportunity.

However I do think that there should be some consideration given to a deliberate cynical "professional foul" rather than a mistimed tackle which denies a clear goal scoring opportunity. It's puts the onus back on referees to interpret what is cynical as well as what is a foul in the first place which will no doubt cause a few problems but certainly a 15 minute sin bin for a mistimed challenge might be an alternative solution.

Referees do tend to make the distimction between a deliberate cynical handball in the penalty area and one where a goal bound shot hits a players arm that is slightly away from their body. The latter isn't always a sending of whilst the former is. I don't see why the same isn't applied to fouls really.

Good point Vision, that would work better....

It just annoys me when the ref *has* to reach for the red card if a defender mistimes a tackle, cos the attacker is too quick, and due to being the last man its a red card....

[Platypuss]

Referees do tend to make the distimction between a deliberate cynical handball in the penalty area and one where a goal bound shot hits a players arm that is slightly away from their body. The latter isn't always a sending of whilst the former is. I don't see why the same isn't applied to fouls really.

But should they make such a distinction considering the Laws as written? I'm not convinced.

(Assuming the second case is penalised as a penalty)

[soggy biscuit]

Don't like the sin bin idea. Just turned it into a novelty sport once that is in. may as well start dishing out hop on one leg punishments or blindfold wearing punishments.

[TBM]

Don't like the sin bin idea. Just turned it into a novelty sport once that is in. may as well start dishing out hop on one leg punishments or blindfold wearing punishments.

It works in Rugby and Ice Hockey though...

Unless it favours your team then a game of football can be ruined by a stupid sending off - i'd personally much rather watch an even 11v11, than a one sided 10v11 game

[Sanguine]

The problem is the player who stupidly got himself sent off, not the rules.

[TBM]

The problem is the player who stupidly got himself sent off, not the rules.

Check the 2 red cards in this game (below) - how is what he did for the first one worthy of a red card, thus ruining the game....the 2nd, ok it was a penalty but the challenge wasn't dangerous but he gets sent off for it, due to him apparently stopping Remi from scoring (which we don't know if he would have)

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/al ... 5-stoke-1/

[Sanguine]

Link won't load for me - but the vast majority of red cards are worthy or within the rules, so I'm not sure what point you're making. Yes, a small number of red cards are issued wrongly. But that's it.

[stealthpapes]

I don't think Puncheon style penalty incompetence should have an effect on the punishment for an offence which denies a goal scoring opportunity.

However I do think that there should be some consideration given to a deliberate cynical "professional foul" rather than a mistimed tackle which denies a clear goal scoring opportunity. It's puts the onus back on referees to interpret what is cynical as well as what is a foul in the first place which will no doubt cause a few problems but certainly a 15 minute sin bin for a mistimed challenge might be an alternative solution.

Referees do tend to make the distimction between a deliberate cynical handball in the penalty area and one where a goal bound shot hits a players arm that is slightly away from their body. The latter isn't always a sending of whilst the former is. I don't see why the same isn't applied to fouls really.

Good point Vision, that would work better....

It just annoys me when the ref *has* to reach for the red card if a defender mistimes a tackle, cos the attacker is too quick, and due to being the last man its a red card....

My reading of the rules is that he doesn't *have* to, the problem is that they tend to. The worst situation for this is always with goalkeepers coming out - if the player is going wide or there are defenders anywhere close, it really is not a straight red.