Justice For The 96

[creative_username_1]

Have there been many other events like Hboro? I know of Ibrox where 66 people lost there lives

[Mr Angry]

My experience was at a UEFA Cup Quarter Final match in Bucherest between Dinamo Bucherest and Benfica; the first problem was that the crowds were being filtered through increasingly narrower approaches to the stadium, with check points every hundred yards or so manned by young conscripts clearly scared by the mass of people; at the gates into the stadium itself, the crush was horrendous and I have to admit I immediately though of Hillsborough.

In the ground, loads of squaddies had simply turned up without tickets (Dinamo were the Army team) and sat where they liked; this meant that the ground was dangerously overfilled with people sitting wherever they could, and with no stewarding whatsoever, in a crumbling wreck of a stadium.

In other words, all the ingredients that led to Hillsborough were there in Bucherest that night, and had something happened the same outcome would have occurred; unsuitable stadium, the authorities not giving a toss, and poor crowd management with the onus on control rather than safety. The fact a serious incident didn't happen was simply down to luck.

And had it have happened, not a single fan would have been to blame for it, exactly as at Hillsborough; those on here who are denigrating the dead of April 1989 simply because they are Liverpool fans should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves (but won't be of course). Those that died that day were football fans, just like all of us, and I'm pleased that the findings have come out and I look forward in the weeks to come to a lot of police and others being prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.

[creative_username_1]

In the ground, loads of squaddies had simply turned up without tickets (Dinamo were the Army team) and sat where they liked; this meant that the ground was dangerously overfilled with people sitting wherever they could,

And had it have happened, not a single fan would have been to blame for it.

[No Fixed Abode]

What he actually said was

"Fans’ behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.

“But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick-off approached. I held those views then, I hold them now.

“I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known about the Hillsborough tragedy because I have absolutely nothing to hide.”

Which is quite different than what is being suggested.

Fans made it harder to police the event - surely that's true of every, single match ever held anywhere?

But that behaviour didn’t cause the disaster - just how clearer can that be?

The laughable bit in Kes's increasingly desperate and fatuous responses is the persistent attempt to suggest that the behaviour of supporters at this match was in any way different to the way that any set of supporters, from any club, would have behaved at the same circumstances at the same or an equivalent match - or that they way they behaved was in any way different to the "norms" for football at that time.

That is my point - I'm not saying they behaved any differently to other football fans back then. I'm saying, they still pushed and shoved outside the Leppings Lane end causing the crush outside which then led to the tragic consequences later on. Doe's the 'norms' make it right? - ~"that's how fans behaved then" - No it doesn't. I don't accept - "that's just the way it was back then". Some fans could have should have been more responsible.

I suppose when I used to get crushed a bit in the Shed when it was a terrace was all the police's fault too? But that was ok - cos that's just how fans are.

Like I've said before - we all know there would have been some pissed up fans misbehaving that day, and people without tickets in the area of the Leppings Lane stand - will these people come forward and say "You know what - I didn't have a ticket, or I was trying to get in without one that day" - Will they heck.. So to say they are totally blameless is silly. They certainly didn't help the situation. But like you say "It' was the 'norm'....So we have to accept it.

Anyway - said my piece now. Police and authorities were a disgrace and small % of Liverpool fans didn't help the situation that day.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I agree with you, then - there was a disaster there that day because there was a football crowd there, behaving in a way consistent with the way a football crowd always does.

And you're dead right in your argument - If there hadn't been a football crowd there then there wouldn't have been a disaster. So it is their fault for being there and behaving like a football crowd.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

It's just the inevitable dynamics of how many things work at scale. This is widely understood by those who design stadia and manage crowds for any significant event.

To reduce a terrible event to a probably too scientific example:

If you drip a drop of water at at time into a funnel the water will flow through. If however you fill the whole top of the funnel with water the water flow out the bottom will be slower despite a much larger volume of water going in. This is not 'caused' by the individual droplets but by the dynamic which develops as the scale is increased.

It is a law of nature that as scale increases in many systems behavior becomes more complex and potentially chaotic. These systems then become much harder to manage than a slower, laminar flow/crowd/whatever.

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity. Crowds are different to individuals, not because of the characteristics of the component individuals in them but because of their scale.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity.

Yes, because that's exactly the same as selfishly pushing and shoving to get in to see kickoff, thereby causing the deaths of 96 people.

Did you actually read all of what a I wrote below?

This is going to sound harsh but I am going to say it. It seems some people on this thread either lack the intelligence and educational framework to understand how chaotic systems such as a crowds are different from individuals, or are so anti-Liverpudlian (in much the same way as some folk just don't like black people) that they will blame them despite the evidence, or are just internet trolling to provoke a reaction.

It's just the inevitable dynamics of how many things work at scale. This is widely understood by those who design stadia and manage crowds for any significant event.

To reduce a terrible event to a probably too scientific example:

If you drip a drop of water at at time into a funnel the water will flow through. If however you fill the whole top of the funnel with water the water flow out the bottom will be slower despite a much larger volume of water going in. This is not 'caused' by the individual droplets but by the dynamic which develops as the scale is increased.

It is a law of nature that as scale increases in many systems behavior becomes more complex and potentially chaotic. These systems then become much harder to manage than a slower, laminar flow/crowd/whatever.

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity. Crowds are different to individuals, not because of the characteristics of the component individuals in them but because of their scale.

[Ark Royal]

Had a near crushing experience at Highbury in '72 for a 5th round replay between Arsenal and Derby. Considering that the game was a midweek afternoon kick off, over 63,000 were jammed in. A barrier collapsed in the North Bank and some kids were hurt, but nothing more than broken bones. The scary memory for me was being so tightly crammed in that I could not even raise my arms and at one point my feet were not touching the terrace and I was just wedged between people. It is a very thin line sometimes with massive crowd movements and it may take only one person to fall and the domino effect would be devastating. Very close to a disaster that day and not a pleasant memory.

[Stuboo]

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity.

Yes, because that's exactly the same as selfishly pushing and shoving to get in to see kickoff, thereby causing the deaths of 96 people.

Ideal and No Fixed Abode are so far off the mark on it's grotesque. You really should read the report before you gob off.

No point arguing with idiots, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Better off just locking the thread because I suspect these two are going to keep on spouting off bile and rubbish, disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives and the ones who were affected by Hillsborough. Shame on you!

[Yellowcoat]

Had a very similar experience getting into a Tottenham vs Arsenal evening game once when the gates opened late due turnstile operators arriving later than expected due to transport problems. For the last 50 yards or so my feet never touched the ground and stewards had actually been deployed to catch people when they were forced into the ground rather like champagne corks coming out of a bottle. Unless you have been involved in a crush like this I suspect crowd dynamics are not appreciated. I realised long before getting in that had I fallen I would have no chance but could do nothing about it. Just for Kes - some were calling out for those at the back to stop pushing but this had no effect at all.

[No Fixed Abode]

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity.

Yes, because that's exactly the same as selfishly pushing and shoving to get in to see kickoff, thereby causing the deaths of 96 people.

Ideal and No Fixed Abode are so far off the mark on it's grotesque. You really should read the report before you gob off.

No point arguing with idiots, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Better off just locking the thread because I suspect these two are going to keep on spouting off bile and rubbish, disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives and the ones who were affected by Hillsborough. Shame on you!

Read my posts. Nothing disrespectful in any of them thank you. I don't really get this, if you even dare suggest some Liverpool fans could have been more respectful of others that day you're disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives. Of course I'm not. I'm disrespecting those that did play up that day.

I'm predicting some more stories to come out of all this - especially from the police and authorities side. It's going to be interesting.

[Jerry St Clair]

Read my posts. Nothing disrespectful in any of them thank you. I don't really get this, if you even dare suggest some Liverpool fans could have been more respectful of others that day you're disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives. Of course I'm not. I'm disrespecting those that did play up that day.

You're arguments are ill-conceived, contradictory and illogical. Lots of people on here have explained the facts very clearly, but you seem determined to ignore them.

I know you think you're being clever and subversive with this fishing, but you're just coming across as a dunder-headed simpleton. Give it up.

[No Fixed Abode]

Read my posts. Nothing disrespectful in any of them thank you. I don't really get this, if you even dare suggest some Liverpool fans could have been more respectful of others that day you're disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives. Of course I'm not. I'm disrespecting those that did play up that day.

You're arguments are ill-conceived, contradictory and illogical. Lots of people on here have explained the facts very clearly, but you seem determined to ignore them.

I know you think you're being clever and subversive with this fishing, but you're just coming across as a dunder-headed simpleton. Give it up.

OK - Nobody was in the vicinity of the Leppings Lane end without tickets that day. Nobody pushed and shoved through other fans to try and get in the ground in time for kick off that day. Nobody had a drink that day. Everyone acted impeccably. I admit it.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

You might as well blame somebody falling out of a plane for gravity.

Yes, because that's exactly the same as selfishly pushing and shoving to get in to see kickoff, thereby causing the deaths of 96 people.

If a bit of pushing and shoving was enough to cause 96 people to die then Hillsborough would have been a weekly event.

[DelBoyRodders]

Open question to all those who think Liverpool fans were on their best behaviour that day.

So why did the Police decide to open the gate that day?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I don't really get this, if you even dare suggest some Liverpool fans could have been more respectful of others that day you're disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives. Of course I'm not. I'm disrespecting those that did play up that day.

Yeah, but you're not. You're saying the Liverpool fans were to blame, which is entirely different.

What you seem unable to grasp is that in large crowds it doesn't need people pushing to cause a crush. You are pretty much implying that Liverpool fans were pushing forwards down the tunnel en-masse, and the force of this pushing was enough to crush people.

That's not how it works. The force was so great that the crush barriers failed - thick metal bars bent double as if made from plasticine. You can't generate that much force though a bit of pushing and shoving.


The Liverpool fans that day were not all angels. Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock. That doesn't mean their actions were a significant factor in the tragedy though.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Open question to all those who think Liverpool fans were on their best behaviour that day.

So why did the Police decide to open the gate that day?

Because there was a crush outside due the the number of people entering the enclose courtyard where the turnstiles where, at a faster rate than they were able to go through the turnstiles.

Why do you think it was opened?

[DelBoyRodders]

The Liverpool fans that day were not all angels. Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock.

No more needs to be said.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

The Liverpool fans that day were not all angels. Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock.

No more needs to be said.

Other than maybe adding why you thought the gate was opened...

[PieEater]

Open question to all those who think Liverpool fans were on their best behaviour that day.

So why did the Police decide to open the gate that day?

Because the guy in charge was clueless, had totally failed to do any crowd management outside, and thought this was the best course of action. In failing to put in a cordon, as usually happened, he'd created a problem at the turnstiles. His solution to that problem was to open the gates.

But in your mind, the fans being there where the problem