Justice For The 96

[SLAMMED]

Can this thread just be locked?

[Jerry St Clair]

OK - Nobody was in the vicinity of the Leppings Lane end without tickets that day. Nobody pushed and shoved through other fans to try and get in the ground in time for kick off that day. Nobody had a drink that day. Everyone acted impeccably. I admit it.

Can I make it crystal clear?

Ticketless fans did not contribute to the disaster
Pushing and shoving did not contribute to the disaster
Alcohol consumption did not contribute to the disaster

[Jerry St Clair]

Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock. That doesn't mean their actions were a significant factor in the tragedy though.

Your former point was raised in the Taylor Report. There were no reports of fans attempting to jump turnstiles prior to 2.30. Those doing so afterwards were assumed to be doing so to escape the crush (bones were being broken outside by this point).

There is one reported instance of theft from a corner shop near the ground before the game. But I'm not sure there's any evidence of fans nicking stuff from the tea bars.

In fact, one of the things that struck me as most touching was evidence from locals in houses around Hillsborough. Many opened their front doors to allow fans to phone home to say they were alright. Huge queues formed into the streets with several saying the fans left piles of 10p coins on their tables to cover the cost of calls. If the Liverpool fans were an unruly mob, as some on here allude, I very much doubt the people of Sheffield would have opened their doors to them.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock. That doesn't mean their actions were a significant factor in the tragedy though.

Your former point was raised in the Taylor Report. There were no reports of fans attempting to jump turnstiles prior to 2.30. Those doing so afterwards were assumed to be doing so to escape the crush (bones were being broken outside by this point).

There is one reported instance of theft from a corner shop near the ground before the game. But I'm not sure there's any evidence of fans nicking stuff from the tea bars.

In fact, one of the things that struck me as most touching was evidence from locals in houses around Hillsborough. Many opened their front doors to allow fans to phone home to say they were alright. Huge queues formed into the streets with several saying the fans left piles of 10p coins on their tables to cover the cost of calls. If the Liverpool fans were an unruly mob, as some on here allude, I very much doubt the people of Sheffield would have opened their doors to them.

they were from here
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 420001.pdf
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 700001.pdf

Statements from stewards, including the chief steward.

The fact of the matter is that even if a small number were unruly, that doesn't make them significant contributors to the disaster.

The other quite glaringly obvious fact is that if the police didn't think it reflected very badly on them, they wouldn't have embarked on a cover up and smear campaign.

[No Fixed Abode]

OK - Nobody was in the vicinity of the Leppings Lane end without tickets that day. Nobody pushed and shoved through other fans to try and get in the ground in time for kick off that day. Nobody had a drink that day. Everyone acted impeccably. I admit it.

Can I make it crystal clear?

Ticketless fans did not contribute to the disaster
Pushing and shoving did not contribute to the disaster
Alcohol consumption did not contribute to the disaster

Totally agree with everything you've said.

Ticketless fans did not contribute to the disaster - Excess fans without tickets outside the Leppings Lane end helped alleviate the crush outside the turnstiles.

Pushing and shoving did not contribute to the disaster - Pushing and shoving outside the Leppings Lane end helped the police immensely.

Alcohol consumption did not contribute to the disaster - Drinking and being in a carefree state certainly helped the police.

[Ian Royal]

Yes - but that's the point. They were there but they also need the public's co-operation too.

So if a fan got in the opposing end and started stabbing someone to death it's the stewards fault or police's fault someone got in the ground with a knife?

If the stewards and police were required to check the spectators for weapons and knives on admission than yes they'd have to take a large portion of the blame for failing to do their jobs.

The difference here is that those you're accusing of being unruly or not acting with due care, had no intention to hurt or injure anybody. if the relevant safety procedures and policing had been done right then the greatest sin of those you're criticising for not being decent enough, would have been to deny somebody else the chance to watch a game they'd paid for.

Yes - but if I was getting on a packed tube and pushed/shoved someone to get on and they were injured, it's a consequence of my action. I didn't INTEND to injure the person but I did - and have to take some responsibility. Must be the police's fault and London Underground as they have a duty of care to all their passengers.

You don't have any choice if there are another 100 people behind you. At each person forward the crush gets tighter. The tiniest movement in reasonable space at the back is increased slightly through each person infront until it is magnified massively at the front.

This is crowd dynamics. No one who actually has the ability to stop themselves is pushing anyone in front of them to the point that they are in any danger. The problem comes a hundred yards or two back where there is space and its impossible to tell there isn't further forward. And it is not down to being more polite or patient. It's down to managing a crowd. Crowds don't act as a mass of individuals. Expecting them to is like expecting a hungry lion to ignore a lamb tied to a post.

[No Fixed Abode]

I don't really get this, if you even dare suggest some Liverpool fans could have been more respectful of others that day you're disrespecting the innocent that lost their lives. Of course I'm not. I'm disrespecting those that did play up that day.

Yeah, but you're not. You're saying the Liverpool fans were to blame, which is entirely different.

What you seem unable to grasp is that in large crowds it doesn't need people pushing to cause a crush. You are pretty much implying that Liverpool fans were pushing forwards down the tunnel en-masse, and the force of this pushing was enough to crush people.

That's not how it works. The force was so great that the crush barriers failed - thick metal bars bent double as if made from plasticine. You can't generate that much force though a bit of pushing and shoving.


The Liverpool fans that day were not all angels. Some (not hundreds, just some) were seem jumping the turnstiles. Some saw the distraction of the events as an ideal chance to loot the tea bars of their takings and stock. That doesn't mean their actions were a significant factor in the tragedy though.

I'm not talking about inside the ground

[Ian Royal]

OK - Nobody was in the vicinity of the Leppings Lane end without tickets that day. Nobody pushed and shoved through other fans to try and get in the ground in time for kick off that day. Nobody had a drink that day. Everyone acted impeccably. I admit it.

Can I make it crystal clear?

Ticketless fans did not contribute to the disaster
Pushing and shoving did not contribute to the disaster
Alcohol consumption did not contribute to the disaster

Totally agree with everything you've said.

Ticketless fans did not contribute to the disaster - Excess fans without tickets outside the Leppings Lane end helped alleviate the crush outside the turnstiles.The possibility of a few fans without tickets made no difference whatsoever, it made the police and stewards job no harder.

Pushing and shoving did not contribute to the disaster - Pushing and shoving outside the Leppings Lane end helped the police immensely. There was no pushing and shoving found other than the normal press of a tightly packed queue with too many people allowed to flow into increasingly smaller spaces. The Police's job was to prevent this. Anywhere a large number of people want to get through a small gap this will happen, regardless of politeness if the proper crowd management is not followed.

Alcohol consumption did not contribute to the disaster - Drinking and being in a carefree state certainly helped the police. Drinking and being carefree neither helped or hindered the police. Everyone being 100% sober would have made not the tiniest jot of difference.

None of these things you mention had even the smallest effect on the problem which was caused by the systematic and enourmous failings of the Police, FA, Council and Stewards.

I'm doing you the great honour of assuming you are just too stupid to understand so explaining, because the thought of you being smart enough to understand and carrying on regardless, actually makes me feel sick.

[Stuboo]

Open question to all those who think Liverpool fans were on their best behaviour that day.

So why did the Police decide to open the gate that day?

If you read the report it will answer your question.

There were not enough turnstyles at the Leppings lane end to process a capacity crowd. Later, the health and safety people did a study and found that a whole capacity crowd would not be able to enter the stadium until about forty minutes after kick off. This caused a backlog of fans outside the stadium and a crush outside the stadium, which was also a constricted area. The game was about to start, and many people were going to miss the game, so rather than pushing the start time back, the police decided to open the gates to let people in more quickly.

[No Fixed Abode]

@Ian

I'm agreeing with you.

More people in the area than there should have been and people pushing and shoving helped.

[handbags_harris]

There are some people commenting on this thread who should be embarrassed by what they have written. Certain contributors have either never been to Hillsborough, or if they have they have never experienced the central tunnel of the lower tier of the Leppings Lane End. It's either that or they just can't see the Hillsborough disaster for what it was. The layout of Hillsborough has barely changed in the 23 years since the disaster occurred and it is still very easy to see why it happened. I quote a post of mine from April on another Hillsborough thread:-

...Very little has actually changed to the layout of the lower tier since 1989 in plan terms. There is absolutely no way a fan could have known how full the middle TWO pens were (it was two pens full, not one which you stated earlier - discredits your knowledge somewhat that doesn't it?). There is absolutely no viewpoint of the pitch from behind the stand except when you enter the tunnel that leads to the terraces and that hasn't changed even now (see the image below ripped off Wikipedia). Once in the central tunnel the view is straight ahead on to the pitch, so those coming in could see the pitch over people's heads and instinctively tried to move forward. The good Reverend has it spot on here where he says those at the back would have no sense of the pressure ahead. If you've ever walked through the middle tunnel of the Leppings Lane End then you very quickly begin to understand just how a crush can develop in such a short space of time.

And let's not fail to acknowledge that Hillsborough should never have been used as a Semi-final venue due to the fact that it didn't have a valid safety certificate at the time of the match.

Kes has been persistently peddling the totally incomparable packed tube allusion which my quote above was completely in response to, only this time peddled out by another serial prick, lowerwestjunior. There is a monumental difference between deliberately shoving yourself on to a fully windowed, obvious to all and sundry packed tube train and entering an area of a football stadium that you have absolutely no view of the inner sanctum of.

I fail to understand why Liverpool fans should have acted any differently to any other football crowd of the day. As a football fan I attend football matches for my own personal gratification. I will do all I safely can to view the match I have paid for, and if that means queuing up in a restricted area with thousands of like-minded excitable, impatient fans then that is what I will do. I am not overtly interested in the actions of the other people within my vicinity, save for members of the authorities who are there to ensure that the safety of the crowd is maintained. At Hillsborough on 15 April 1989 they collectively failed to manage predictable actions from thousands regular football fans, or in other words, they collectively failed to ensure the safety of thousands of football fans at a football match which led to 96 people dying.

Lastly, this subject has been discussed ad nauseum on these boards and we get the same bollocks spouted from the same sources. They have now been proven, by the STATE no less, to have been completely incorrect in their belief that Liverpool fans were somehow significantly to blame for what happened. Yes they contributed, but to lay a portion of blame at their door? What an absurd, offensive notion. I would also echo the sentiment of others on here that this thread should now be locked.

[SLAMMED]

/thread

[larry1971]

Have there been many other events like Hboro? I know of Ibrox where 66 people lost there lives

Ibrox, was not the result of crushing on the terracing it happened on a staircase leading up to the terracing and I think it was caused by some one tripping on the stairs as those people who were leaving the ground tried to move back up the stairs when they thought that Rangers had scored a goal .. The fact that it has now come out that Hillsborough did not have a safety licence is bad enough but what makes it worse is that the FA knew very well that Hillsborough was struggling to cope with large crowds as there were problems with over crowding at the 1981, 1987 and 1988 semi finals . The FA apparently had recieved complaints of crushing at the Leppings Lane end from Nottingham Forest fans at the 1988 semi yet despite all this they chose to ignore it.

[creative_username_1]

Have there been many other events like Hboro? I know of Ibrox where 66 people lost there lives

Ibrox, was not the result of crushing on the terracing it happened on a staircase leading up to the terracing and I think it was caused by some one tripping on the stairs as those people who were leaving the ground tried to move back up the stairs when they thought that Rangers had scored a goal .. The fact that it has now come out that Hillsborough did not have a safety licence is bad enough but what makes it worse is that the FA knew very well that Hillsborough was struggling to cope with large crowds as there were problems with over crowding at the 1981, 1987 and 1988 semi finals . The FA apparently had recieved complaints of crushing at the Leppings Lane end from Nottingham Forest fans at the 1988 semi yet despite all this they chose to ignore it.

looked it up and it appears it had nothing to do with people trying to move back up the stairs down to just one person falling and the
domino effect that had

[larry1971]

Have there been many other events like Hboro? I know of Ibrox where 66 people lost there lives

Ibrox, was not the result of crushing on the terracing it happened on a staircase leading up to the terracing and I think it was caused by some one tripping on the stairs as those people who were leaving the ground tried to move back up the stairs when they thought that Rangers had scored a goal .. The fact that it has now come out that Hillsborough did not have a safety licence is bad enough but what makes it worse is that the FA knew very well that Hillsborough was struggling to cope with large crowds as there were problems with over crowding at the 1981, 1987 and 1988 semi finals . The FA apparently had recieved complaints of crushing at the Leppings Lane end from Nottingham Forest fans at the 1988 semi yet despite all this they chose to ignore it.

looked it up and it appears it had nothing to do with people trying to move back up the stairs down to just one person falling and the
domino effect that had

I vaguely recall that at Highbury there was a staircase leading up to the North Bank , when you think how big that terracing was it's a miracle there were never any serious accidents there as fans left the ground at full time.

[Anfield Kopite]

Liverpool fan here. Ive just registered after hearing Reading fans showed their class and where very respectful towards our 96 today. Ive had a little trawl through this thread and ive seen that some of you understand what we went through that day and id just like to say thank you. To those who just dont get it all id say is i was there mate, we went to watch the match and we did nothing wrong. Worse day of my life.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Welcome.

Don't worry about some on here who persistently post to get a reaction. They're not actually as stupid as they come across, but they do love the attention they get from arguing the outrageous and indefensible. They're in no way representative of the rest of us.

[sandman]

Welcome.

Don't worry about some on here who persistently post to get a reaction. They're not actually as stupid as they come across, but they do love the attention they get from arguing the outrageous and indefensible. They're in no way representative of the rest of us.

Mainly because one of them is a CheLOLsea fan and the other is a Norwegian racist.

[creative_username_1]

is AKopite real or Kes/Jay etc

[Anfield Kopite]

is AKopite real or Kes/Jay etc

Oh yes im very real. And im very sincere when i say thanks to anyone who respects the 96. I knew from day 1 that the police and some 'politicians' where conducting a cover up and a black propaganda campaign against our fans, But having read the results from the Hilsborough independent panel today even im amazed at the scale of deciet. One young copper who stated at the time he was going to be whistle blower was told he would be branded as someone who accepted bribes from ticketless scousers to bunk them in therefore increasing the attendence in that part of the ground.