Justice For The 96

[No Fixed Abode]

I'll believe them over an armchair fan like yourself.

well i think I'll believe the actual evidence over you m8

yes - but did that didn't stop you guys still thinking John Terry was racist even though he was found 'not guilty'.

It's not that I don't believe the majority of the evidence. However it is clear that outside the ground Liverpool fans were pushing and shoving forward as it was taking so long to get fans in the ground. If I was at a game, I would have more respect for the person in front. It's a shame some Liverpool fans didn't have that respect - they were too intent on getting in the ground to see kick off which had a domino effect of what happened after. If someone didn't die in the ground, they certainly would have died outside.

[maffff]

It's not a very popular opinion but I'm very much in the mindset of Ideal and NFA. Valid point by Wax Jacket here too...

I've got quite a few mates from the NW; Liverpool fans and those loosely connected. It seems everyone knows someone up that way linked to it. I've tried asking that point before but the views are so blinkered .

[Once were Biscuitmen]

It was a outrageous failure of crowd control in a stadium with poorly (or perhaps dated is the better word) designed entrance and egress routes.

The Police outside wanted to release the crush they could see and avoid any possible disorder. Opening up the extra gate with no knowledge of the conditions inside or trying to even anticipate the consequences amounts to criminal negligence at the very least.

The crowd outside had no idea what was happening in the stands and would have stopped trying to enter if they had.

Thankfully we now understand crowd dynamics and plan for them, both in terms of stadia design and crowd control on any give day. Today the prevalence of radios, CCTV and one officer with overall responsibility are all lessons learned from the disaster.

To suggest the fans were to blame is, and always has been, both inaccurate and offensive.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Then you and your m8s clearly have no knowledge of crowd dynamics and the layout of Hillsborough.

When the fatal mistake to open the gates was made, there was naturally a rush of people through them, and down the nearest (dark) tunnel. No signage or stewards to direct anyone to the other, half-empty pens.

But the pen in front was full, so the people in the tunnel had nowhere to go except forwards, and with crowds behind them the crush was funnelled through the tunnels and into the pen in front.

This isn't about people being rude and pushing when they shouldn't have done - this is about the way crowds behave under pressure and how they were allowed en masse and uncontrolled into an enclosed space.

[cmonurz]

It's not a very popular opinion but I'm very much in the mindset of Ideal and NFA. Valid point by Wax Jacket here too...

I've got quite a few mates from the NW; Liverpool fans and those loosely connected. It seems everyone knows someone up that way linked to it. I've tried asking that point before but the views are so blinkered .

You are waiting to get into a football ground. You have been waiting for some time. Kick-off is getting close. Then a gate is opened. You have no idea what is going on inside the ground and can't even see the front of the crowd.

What do you do?

Answer truthfully now.

Anyway, this thread has taken exactly the route the likes of NFA wanted it to. The report has made it's conclusions, the Liverpool fans were not at fault, and nor, from the evidence collected, were they excessively drunk.

[PieEater]

NFA thinks he knows better than Lord Taylor and others who have published conclusions that rubbish his opinion.

Cameron must be applauded for his apology, but it still leaves some unanswered questions,

the panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth

.

That may be true but what about South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield City Council, the original coroner? They are the parties that appeared to conspire in a cover up and they need be held accountable for that.

I won't be convinced until the Attorney General applies to the court for a new inquest. Is there any precedent for that?

[Once were Biscuitmen]

offensive.

How about you answer this direct question:
In order for someone to be squashed to death, some other people have to be doing the squashing - YES or NO?

Well that is selective quoting at it's very best!

To answer the question, No.

The crowd outside were trying to enter the ground, simple as that. They had no reason to assume their actions would lead to the tragic consequences, they were going where they were directed by the Police Officers on the day.

It was the job of the Police to manage the crowd and anticipate the likely consequences of directing hundreds of fans into an already full stand.

The fans had no idea what was transpiring inside but the Police should have done and reacted accordingly.

[windermere_royal]

offensive.

How about you answer this direct question:
In order for someone to be squashed to death, some other people have to be doing the squashing - YES or NO?

The fact of the matter is the fans had no idea people at the rfont were being crushed, all they wanted to do is get a view of the pitch one way or another, you dont have to be drunk to do that, we`ve all done it, arrived late at a game and rushed into the nearest enclosure,
the problem was once the gate was opened there were no stewards to direct the inrushing fans to enclosures that were less congested, I don`t believe the fans can be blamed for this.

[philM]

offensive.

How about you answer this direct question:
In order for someone to be squashed to death, some other people have to be doing the squashing - YES or NO?

When a crush happens, the people at the back think there is still somewhere to get to, they don't realise the effect of their actions many yards ahead of them.

I've been badly crushed against a barrier at the front of a gig and I'm sure the people at the back of it weren't pushing with anything like the force I was subjected to. The force is cumulative, that's why it's the front few rows that get crushed the most.

[dizzynewheights]

offensive.

How about you answer this direct question:
In order for someone to be squashed to death, some other people have to be doing the squashing - YES or NO?

how do people like you cope in life

I mean, how do you manage to cross the road without being killed

open a bank account

remember to breathe

[cmonurz]

I don't believe for one second that nobody at the front or nearer to it would have shouted what was happening, and that the people at the back absolutely did not know, it's just not plausible.
Usually when people are screaming for help, dying, other humans have a habit of passing that sort of information along, be it through shouting or other ways of communication, so you have to be incredibly deluded in order to believe that.

People were streaming into the ground as the game kicked off. By 3.04pm, Bruce Grobelaar was aware of what was going on. You don’t seem to have any appreciation as to how quickly this all happened.

I don’t know why I’m still responding to this shit. You are fully aware of what you are posting, and I’m fully aware you are on a wind-up (surely). No right-minded person can hold the opinion you have, especially against the evidence now presented.

[Wax Jacket]

It's not a very popular opinion but I'm very much in the mindset of Ideal and NFA. Valid point by Wax Jacket here too...

I've got quite a few mates from the NW; Liverpool fans and those loosely connected. It seems everyone knows someone up that way linked to it. I've tried asking that point before but the views are so blinkered .

there are more and more people thinking the same

I get no pleasure from thinking it btw

[PieEater]

Ideal, read Dirks post again, the pens were at the end of a long tunnel, with a significant slope, there were 40k+ fans inside cheering on their team. What makes you think anyone could hear anything?

[Silver Fox]

I don't believe for one second that nobody at the front or nearer to it would have shouted what was happening, and that the people at the back absolutely did not know, it's just not plausible.

TBF it's not pausible that someone as obviously thick as you could switch a computer on, let alone type a whole sentence, but you manage it, all too fvcking regularly

[Once were Biscuitmen]

I don't believe for one second that nobody at the front or nearer to it would have shouted what was happening, and that the people at the back absolutely did not know, it's just not plausible.
Usually when people are screaming for help, dying, other humans have a habit of passing that sort of information along, be it through shouting or other ways of communication, so you have to be incredibly deluded in order to believe that.

I can't decide if you are just trolling or not but here goes -

The people outside of the ground were separated by the area from the gates to the ground to the entrances, then the length of the tunnel, and then the distance to front of the pen.

There was also a football match going on with significant crowd noise. The fans had no way of knowing what was happening at the front of the pen and it was not their responsibility to do so.

The gig example above is a good one, you push at the back to get closer to the stage but have no idea what this means for the people at the front. Most years I went to the Reading Festival back in the day they had to ask everybody to step back because those at the front were in discomfort. A football pen is a far more enclosed environment than this which is why any crowd must be managed properly given the size of the crowd and the arena in question..

[Deadlock]

What you guys have to remember is that Ideal is a Tromso fan, and watches his team play in front of crowds than can sometimes number in the dozens. He has no experience of large crowds, and doesn't understand the dynamics involved.

[windermere_royal]

Hang your head in shame Ideal or whatever your name is.

[Royal With Cheese]

To be honest there is little point trying to engage in informed debate with the likes of NFA or Ideal.

Writing as someone who was actually there that fateful day and even though I was in with the Forest supporters I've found today quite emotional. At the end of the day I was very close to not attending football after the event. I've found the "official" revalations bodering on repugnant. It's a salient lesson for us all on how the state can go about its dirty business. This is one thread I'd be happy to lock now.

[watfordroyal]

why did Heysel and Hillsbrough only happen to Liverpool fans?

Prob because they were the most successful club at the time,
but I'm sure there were plenty of near misses elsewhere in the years before.

Worst crush I experienced was trying to get into wembley for chelsea v man city FM cup final, again, total shambles from police, stewards & FA.

[cmonurz]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

Full report on this link.