LOLiverpooLOL - Next Season

[leon]

I'm saying that if the fans didn't push each other in their rush to get into a crowded area (the tunnel leading into the terracing) then there wouldn't have been a crush on the terrace.

I'm just saying that the pushing wasn't something they did knowing the situation at the bottom of the terrace or that is was that out of the ordinary for crowd behaviour. That's why the inquest (and I've agreed) has said they bore no responsibility for the events but, IMO, the actions of those fans contributed to the situation.

It's a small yet massive difference in responsibility and contributing to the crush.

tbf this is all absolute bollocks

[Ian Royal]

I'm saying that if the fans didn't push each other in their rush to get into a crowded area (the tunnel leading into the terracing) then there wouldn't have been a crush on the terrace.

I'm just saying that the pushing wasn't something they did knowing the situation at the bottom of the terrace or that is was that out of the ordinary for crowd behaviour. That's why the inquest (and I've agreed) has said they bore no responsibility for the events but, IMO, the actions of those fans contributed to the situation.

It's a small yet massive difference in responsibility and contributing to the crush.

tbf this is all absolute bollocks

Yeah. Didn't the inquest specifically conclude that there was no (excessive?) pushing or rushing?

It's just a natural consequence that when you have a large volume of people moving through a bottleneck (almost not matter how responsibly), it causes a crush unless the flow in is effectively managed.

As I said earlier. Given the detail and findings of the inquest it's offensive for less informed internet flids to declare that they know better and that really the Liverpool fans did contribute to the disaster in some way.

Even if you hold that view, which you shouldn't, it is not appropriate to express it.

Particularly in follow up to someone who has consistently and repeatedly trolled the issue to cause offence by laying significant blame on the fans and thereby slandering the dead and victims.

[Sanguine]

Quite, it's in that that Kes has identified 'offence' in some of the responses he has received. Let's be clear, Kes' position has not been that 'the nature of football crowds contributed to a volatile situation', but that drunken Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the crush at Hillsborough - and more than once he linked that 'behaviour' to the wholly different and violent situation that arose at Heysel.

[No Fixed Abode]

I don't know why people are still moaning.

I said I stand corrected.

People were only drinking Vimto
Nobody was in the area of Leppings Lane area without a ticket
Nobody tried jibbing in the ground
Nobody could see a mass crowd in front of them outside the ground so they continued to move forward.

[Mr Angry]

I'm not a Liverpool fan, but the Hillsborough verdicts are a victory for all of us who were football fans during those years, years of being treated like animals by the Police, herded into pens and viewed at as at best, an easy way to get overtime and at worst as criminals.

Hillsborough was the inevitable and tragic consequence of all of that crap, and for the Police, a Tory MP, Thatcher, and the Murdoch press to lie, and cover up, and besmirch the dead to try and deflect away from their own responsibility and for their own - ironically - criminal acts, has been a disgusting and shameful episode that has rightly been corrected after 27 long and painful Years for all the families of the victims.

All football fans, regardless of club allegiance, should stand shoulder to shoulder with those of Liverpool FC over Hillsborough because do you know what? that could have been the supporters and their families of pretty well ANY club - even Chelsea.

[No Fixed Abode]

Agreed. And you can even stick your fingers up and spout obscenities at us from the safety of the away end.

But on a serious note - It's naive to think there wasn't a hooligan problem in the 80s. In today's game there certainly is no need for perimeter fencing and such drastic measures as most of the trouble occurs away from the stadium in the town/City centres.

Interesting that Rugby fans weren't treated the same as football fans back then.

[Mr Angry]

You're right, there was a hooligan problem then - a very visible one - but the thing is, in those days EVERYONE was treated like a potential threat to public order, and by the time of Hillsborough, fans were given zero respect and not seen as people, merely a problem.

[tmesis]

Yeah. Didn't the inquest specifically conclude that there was no (excessive?) pushing or rushing?

It's just a natural consequence that when you have a large volume of people moving through a bottleneck (almost not matter how responsibly), it causes a crush unless the flow in is effectively managed.

The crowd would only have been a significant cause of the disaster if they'd acted in an unexpected way, or did something unusual which changed the dynamics of how the crowd reacted.

That's why it was said it wasn't their fault, even though their sheer weight of numbers, and their decision to mainly go for the central pens, were obviously causes of what happened.

[Ian Royal]

Yeah. Didn't the inquest specifically conclude that there was no (excessive?) pushing or rushing?

It's just a natural consequence that when you have a large volume of people moving through a bottleneck (almost not matter how responsibly), it causes a crush unless the flow in is effectively managed.

The crowd would only have been a significant cause of the disaster if they'd acted in an unexpected way, or did something unusual which changed the dynamics of how the crowd reacted.

That's why it was said it wasn't their fault, even though their sheer weight of numbers, and their decision to mainly go for the central pens, were obviously causes of what happened.

Most didn't have much of a choice in going for the central pens. The tunnel fed immediately into them, whilst it took a sharp turn to either side in limited space to get round to the outer pens.

[Winston Smith]

Nice touch from Villarreal fans tonight

[Hoop Blah]

I'm not a Liverpool fan, but the Hillsborough verdicts are a victory for all of us who were football fans during those years, years of being treated like animals by the Police, herded into pens and viewed at as at best, an easy way to get overtime and at worst as criminals.

Hillsborough was the inevitable and tragic consequence of all of that crap, and for the Police, a Tory MP, Thatcher, and the Murdoch press to lie, and cover up, and besmirch the dead to try and deflect away from their own responsibility and for their own - ironically - criminal acts, has been a disgusting and shameful episode that has rightly been corrected after 27 long and painful Years for all the families of the victims.

All football fans, regardless of club allegiance, should stand shoulder to shoulder with those of Liverpool FC over Hillsborough because do you know what? that could have been the supporters and their families of pretty well ANY club - even Chelsea.

Well put Mr A, and for the record I totally agree.

[retro_royal]

Planes taking supporters to Spain diverted due to violent on board behaviour, death threats issued to a 70 year old woman and more references to Munich. It's been a week to forget for Liverpool fans.

[Sanguine]

Planes taking supporters to Spain diverted due to violent on board behaviour, death threats issued to a 70 year old woman and more references to Munich. It's been a week to forget for Liverpool fans.

Tweet from someone on the plane says there was a fight on board between two guys on a stag do. Not related to the Liverpool fans.

[AthleticoSpizz]

Planes taking supporters to Spain diverted due to violent on board behaviour, death threats issued to a 70 year old woman and more references to Munich. It's been a week to forget for Liverpool fans.

ooooo ello

Kes's ring mate

[No Fixed Abode]

Planes taking supporters to Spain diverted due to violent on board behaviour, death threats issued to a 70 year old woman and more references to Munich. It's been a week to forget for Liverpool fans.

Not related to the Liverpool fans.

It never is.

[Ouroboros]

Oh dear.

[No Fixed Abode]

Oh dear.

I know. And in the light the news they're in trouble with UEFA over flares, illicit chanting etc.

[BR2]

Meanwhile, on the pitch a very controlled performance by Liverpool up to the 92nd minute.
Qualification for the final is now on a knife edge but I expect Chelsea and Man Utd would love to be in that position now.
Another really exciting week next week with the semi-finals of both competitions still a long way from being decided. and all those boring qualification games in both competitions now but a distant memory.

BTW a spot-on posting from Mr Angry earlier when he explained what it was like for most fans back in the 70s & 80s-it might help retro and kes to have a better understanding of how things were expressed by somebody who was around at the time rather than by what they have read in history books or seen on children's TV.

[Sanguine]

He claims he isn't on a wind-up, which just makes his comments on Hillsborough pretty vile - given his age, late 30s I think, he'd have been well aware of Hillsborough at the time it happened, and in his early teens through the initial fall out. He gets it, don't doubt that.

[No Fixed Abode]

BTW a spot-on posting from Mr Angry earlier when he explained what it was like for most fans back in the 70s & 80s-it might help retro and kes to have a better understanding of how things were expressed by somebody who was around at the time rather than by what they have read in history books or seen on children's TV.

I suspect you never went to Elm Park but as a kid, for some games - I was pretty pleased that perimeter fencing was there at the away end. Stoke City, Cardiff, Swansea to name but a few caused all sorts of trouble. Whilst it was the minority in most cases that caused the trouble you can see why it was there. Like I say - football still has an issue of people acting in a way they wouldn't normally do in other situations. Like getting angry and sticking your figures up/gesticulating/name calling/illicit chanting to the opposite fans from the safety of a football stand doesn't make this behaviour ok. Then when they leave the ground they wouldn't say boo to a goose. But it's ok - it's what football fans do eh! It's all part of the 'fun'.

With advancement in CCTV and ground security there is no need for fencing now as most trouble is organised away from the ground.