Sanguine He claims he isn't on a wind-up, which just makes his comments on Hillsborough pretty vile - given his age, late 30s I think, he'd have been well aware of Hillsborough at the time it happened, and in his early teens through the initial fall out. He gets it, don't doubt that.
No Fixed AbodeBR2
BTW a spot-on posting from Mr Angry earlier when he explained what it was like for most fans back in the 70s & 80s-it might help retro and kes to have a better understanding of how things were expressed by somebody who was around at the time rather than by what they have read in history books or seen on children's TV.
I suspect you never went to Elm Park but as a kid, for some games - I was pretty pleased that perimeter fencing was there at the away end. Stoke City, Cardiff, Swansea to name but a few caused all sorts of trouble. Whilst it was the minority in most cases that caused the trouble you can see why it was there. Like I say - football still has an issue of people acting in a way they wouldn't normally do in other situations. Like getting angry and sticking your figures up/gesticulating/name calling/illicit chanting to the opposite fans from the safety of a football stand doesn't make this behaviour ok. Then when they leave the ground they wouldn't say boo to a goose. But it's ok - it's what football fans do eh! It's all part of the 'fun'.
With advancement in CCTV and ground security there is no need for fencing now as most trouble is organised away from the ground.
No Fixed Abode Making excuses for appalling behaviour. You must a real lad.
Winston Smith As with many things in life, our different positions and experiences of the same things can give us different outlooks.
If you make a choice to be a football supporter from the outside looking in, to not attend games, to get your football fix through Jeff Stelling and Mark Lawrenson then it is likely you will have a different viewpoint to football fans who actually attend games regularly, stand/sit in the stands shouting for their teams, travel by train and coach up and down the country, and essentially have a more informed opinion of things.
Ian RoyaltmesisIan Royal Yeah. Didn't the inquest specifically conclude that there was no (excessive?) pushing or rushing?
It's just a natural consequence that when you have a large volume of people moving through a bottleneck (almost not matter how responsibly), it causes a crush unless the flow in is effectively managed.
The crowd would only have been a significant cause of the disaster if they'd acted in an unexpected way, or did something unusual which changed the dynamics of how the crowd reacted.
That's why it was said it wasn't their fault, even though their sheer weight of numbers, and their decision to mainly go for the central pens, were obviously causes of what happened.
Most didn't have much of a choice in going for the central pens. The tunnel fed immediately into them, whilst it took a sharp turn to either side in limited space to get round to the outer pens.
No Fixed AbodeWinston Smith As with many things in life, our different positions and experiences of the same things can give us different outlooks.
If you make a choice to be a football supporter from the outside looking in, to not attend games, to get your football fix through Jeff Stelling and Mark Lawrenson then it is likely you will have a different viewpoint to football fans who actually attend games regularly, stand/sit in the stands shouting for their teams, travel by train and coach up and down the country, and essentially have a more informed opinion of things.
Agreed. As a kid when you walk up to Elm Park via the Oxford Road from town and you witness about 100 Swansea fans on the rampage down the Oxford Road it does kinda stick in your memory. Or at Stamford Bridge when away fans got in the home end and it all kicked off You can see why grounds had fences back in those days when CCTV and intelligence wasn't so good.
Mr Angry I'm not a Liverpool fan, but the Hillsborough verdicts are a victory for all of us who were football fans during those years, years of being treated like animals by the Police, herded into pens and viewed at as at best, an easy way to get overtime and at worst as criminals.
Hillsborough was the inevitable and tragic consequence of all of that crap, and for the Police, a Tory MP, Thatcher, and the Murdoch press to lie, and cover up, and besmirch the dead to try and deflect away from their own responsibility and for their own - ironically - criminal acts, has been a disgusting and shameful episode that has rightly been corrected after 27 long and painful Years for all the families of the victims.
All football fans, regardless of club allegiance, should stand shoulder to shoulder with those of Liverpool FC over Hillsborough because do you know what? that could have been the supporters and their families of pretty well ANY club - even Chelsea.
No Fixed Abode But the point is these things work both ways. The authorities didn't do the same with rugby and do you know why? Because fans are well behaved.
Football had a bad reputation for trouble back then and with good reason. Even today football fans do provocative things to each other from the safety of their own stand even if you're not a hands on hooligan. It's a culture that's accepted in football. But that doesn't make that culture right.
Royal With Cheese Just put him on your ignore list.
From Despair To Where?
Anyway, why are we even discussing hooliganism in the context of Hillsborough when the inquest categorically established that it was not a factor. Oh, yeah, because Kes is peddling his own witless agenda.
DeadlockRoyal With Cheese Just put him on your ignore list.
He's been there for years, but people keep quoting him.
No Fixed AbodeFrom Despair To Where?
Anyway, why are we even discussing hooliganism in the context of Hillsborough when the inquest categorically established that it was not a factor. Oh, yeah, because Kes is peddling his own witless agenda.
I was talking in the context of Mr A's post. I never said hooliganism had a part to play in the Hillsborough disaster - only that hooliganism in the 70s/80s was the reason stadiums had perimeter fences. But you knew that didn't you? Please don't try and twist my words. And don't peddle your own 'witless agenda' against something I didn't say or me.
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