Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[Unbelievable Jeff]

There is a reason why there are no good black swimmers.

Swimming pools tend to be where white people are.

Similarly and equally, there is a reason why there are no 'good' black Managers.

Except for Champions League winners like Frank Rijkard and Roberto Di Matteo? Chris Hughton, Paul Ince, Chris Powell?

It is an extraordinary claim to say that the melanin content of your skin is important in your ability to manage a football club.

People who brush this issue under the carpet are being racist, like it or not. Yes, that means you, MeMeMe, and Unbelievable Jeff.

Di Matteo's black?

[Froomes]

There is a reason why there are no good black swimmers.

Swimming pools tend to be where white people are.

Similarly and equally, there is a reason why there are no 'good' black Managers.

Except for Champions League winners like Frank Rijkard and Roberto Di Matteo? Chris Hughton, Paul Ince, Chris Powell?

It is an extraordinary claim to say that the melanin content of your skin is important in your ability to manage a football club.

People who brush this issue under the carpet are being racist, like it or not. Yes, that means you, MeMeMe, and Unbelievable Jeff.

Has Di Matteo had an ethnicity transplant I'm unaware of?

Also using Paul Ince as an example of what black managers can achieve if given the chance is brave to say the least. Here's a man who clearly got his managerial jobs because he ticked a number of boxes, not because of the ability he brought to the role!

A truly awful manager.

That said, its obvious there's an issue, whether its as bad as Roberts would have us believe is debatable, I have a feeling he's after the spotlight more than he is the advancement of his fellow black professionals....

[marcusopp]

There is a reason why there are no good black swimmers. Athletic on the track does not mean good in the pool.

Similarly and equally, there is a reason why there are no 'good' black Managers. Good on the pitch does not mean excelling in the dug out.

FFS Roberts et al, move on.

racist.

Totally.
Ignorant cnut.
I'm white and grew up in a working class background and went to a school with no pool (unlike privileged white middle classes). I learnt to swim later on, and am crap at it!
I'm now settled in a decent job and would be considered middle class. My mixed race son will be a much better swimmer than i'll ever be.
Racism is easy to ignore or belittle if it doesn't affect you or people you care about.
England has a hierarchy or rich white men, who all played soggy biscuit in private schools. Some people, no matter how well qualified, will never be able to work in a particular role (we'll never have a black prime minister for example). This mentality filters down into other large financial institutions, such as football clubs.
My wife is from South Africa and drew my attention to a situation when Nelson Mandella was taking a flight after his release from prison (having been imprisoned for terrorist activities. An act supported by the British Tory government). The pilot of the flight happened to be a black guy, and this concerned even Mandella.
This proves that racism can affect everyone.
The reason Roberts is putting the very broad and concerning topic into simple lay-terms is so the majority of football supporters can understand it. Sadly, ignorant people as those mocking Roberts on here, only see things from their perspective, and therefore ignore how others may be being denied opportunities.

[SCIAG]

There is a reason why there are no good black swimmers.

Swimming pools tend to be where white people are.

Similarly and equally, there is a reason why there are no 'good' black Managers.

Except for Champions League winners like Frank Rijkard and Roberto Di Matteo? Chris Hughton, Paul Ince, Chris Powell?

It is an extraordinary claim to say that the melanin content of your skin is important in your ability to manage a football club.

People who brush this issue under the carpet are being racist, like it or not. Yes, that means you, MeMeMe, and Unbelievable Jeff.

Di Matteo's black?

He has Roma ancestry, which is different from being black in the strictest sense of the word, but not the looser sense.
He's visibly darker than most white people but could probably pass either way.

[tidus_mi2]

I can see there being an issue with a lack of black coaches but I'd suggest the Rooney rule isn't the way to go. You've got to ask why black people aren't getting interviewed for these positions and tackle that, rather than force people to interview a black candidate.

[marlowuk]

Reading fans are embarrassing.

Tl,dr, shut the oxf*rd up white closet racist home county reactionaries.

Jesus H Christ - some people!!

Where's the reaction against there being too many black players compared with the relative numbers of blacks and whites in the population in general?

These are NOT issues, in the same way that the numbers of black managers bearing no relation to the relative numbers in the population in general is NOT an issue.

The issue is not comparing numbers with those in the population in general. It is comparing the number of black managers with the number of black players. One would expect these percentages to be, roughly, equal. But they are far from that even, as has been pointed out, after many years of acceptance of black players. Part of the problem could be (as IR stated) that black players see the small number of their colour being appointed and perceive racism in this and don't bother to even apply. If this is the situation (and I suspect it may be) then the Rooney Rule can be useful. But to deny there is even a problem is to be blinkered in the extreme!!

Us British (still including the Scots!) are a tolerant race. We have not had the extreme race problems that beset the USA and South Africa. But look at the progress in South Africa! A few weeks ago the trial of a rich white celebrity was presided over and adjudicated upon by a black woman!! That would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. We should be making the same sort of progress and if Jason Roberts is striving to achieve this then good luck to him!

[poohs pure]

Has anyone compared the number of black managers in the football league to the number of black bank managers for example, or the number of black managing directors, or the number of black vicars....in isolation, the number of black football league managers is a meaningless statistic. To understand if there is any form of prejudice, you must compare your case against known statistical evidence.

[MeMeMe]

There is a reason why there are no good black swimmers.

Swimming pools tend to be where white people are.

Similarly and equally, there is a reason why there are no 'good' black Managers.

Except for Champions League winners like Frank Rijkard and Roberto Di Matteo? Chris Hughton, Paul Ince, Chris Powell?

It is an extraordinary claim to say that the melanin content of your skin is important in your ability to manage a football club.

People who brush this issue under the carpet are being racist, like it or not. Yes, that means you, MeMeMe, and Unbelievable Jeff.

You calling me a racist you small minded twat !. You completely miss the point.... which is Roberts looking to play the race card where there is to cause to do so, that is what I object to.

Come and call me racist to my face if your old enough !

[SCIAG]

Some people, no matter how well qualified, will never be able to work in a particular role (we'll never have a black prime minister for example).

I think this is overly pessimistic. If America can have a black president, then we can have a black Prime Minister.

William Hill will give you 20-1 for Chuck Umunna to follow David Cameron.

[SCIAG]

Has anyone compared the number of black managers in the football league to the number of black bank managers for example, or the number of black managing directors, or the number of black vicars....in isolation, the number of black football league managers is a meaningless statistic. To understand if there is any form of prejudice, you must compare your case against known statistical evidence.

What would you say if black people were under-represented in other professions as well?

You calling me a racist you small minded twat !. You completely miss the point.... which is Roberts looking to play the race card where there is to cause to do so, that is what I object to.

Come and call me racist to my face if your old enough !

Yes, I am calling you racist. You might not think that black people are sub-human (in fact, I would be shocked if you did), but you are disregarding the obstacles they encounter and saying that inequality is "no oxf*rd issue". You are wilfully supporting racist structures, and that is racist.

Roberts is not "playing the race card". He's pointing out that, somewhere along the line, there is something stopping black people taking managerial positions. I think Ian's analysis is good. Whilst there are reasons why we might not expect the proportion of black managers to line up exactly with the proportion of black footballers (most of which come down to "racism in recent history"), the current numbers seem too low. There's an unexplained difference - and those are indicative of prejudice.

[poohs pure]

Has anyone compared the number of black managers in the football league to the number of black bank managers for example, or the number of black managing directors, or the number of black vicars....in isolation, the number of black football league managers is a meaningless statistic. To understand if there is any form of prejudice, you must compare your case against known statistical evidence.

What would you say if black people were under-represented in other professions as well?

You calling me a racist you small minded twat !. You completely miss the point.... which is Roberts looking to play the race card where there is to cause to do so, that is what I object to.

Come and call me racist to my face if your old enough !

Yes, I am calling you racist. You might not think that black people are sub-human (in fact, I would be shocked if you did), but you are disregarding the obstacles they encounter and saying that inequality is "no oxf*rd issue". You are wilfully supporting racist structures, and that is racist.

Roberts is not "playing the race card". He's pointing out that, somewhere along the line, there is something stopping black people taking managerial positions. I think Ian's analysis is good. Whilst there are reasons why we might not expect the proportion of black managers to line up exactly with the proportion of black footballers (most of which come down to "racism in recent history"), the current numbers seem too low. There's an unexplained difference - and those are indicative of prejudice.

You my friend need to fücking calm down a little bit. My comment was completely based on making a statistical point, it had fück all to with any racist ideology or insinuated anything with a racist undercurrent. It is cünts like you that take offence because you want to be offended. And for your information, my blood is Irish, so along with dogs and blacks, i can say what i oxf*rd like.

[SCIAG]

You my friend need to fücking calm down a little bit. My comment was completely based on making a statistical point, it had fück all to with any racist ideology or insinuated anything with a racist undercurrent. It is cünts like you that take offence because you want to be offended. And for your information, my blood is Irish, so along with dogs and blacks, i can say what i oxf*rd like.

I quite obviously did not call you racist. I was talking to other people.

I said that your statistical point was a bad one. If black people are under-represented amongst bank managers and shop managers and managing directors, what does that show you? Does it show you that black people are incompetent, or does it show that discrimination is, on some level, spread throughout society?

I would humbly suggest that it is you that needs to calm down but I apologise for getting you so riled.

[Whatevs]

what are the actual numbers? Probability of getting a job (av number of applicants), necessary experience to get a job (although not convinced that paying your dues will necessarily make you a better manager) etc etc.

[P!ssed Off]

what are the actual numbers? Probability of getting a job (av number of applicants), necessary experience to get a job (although not convinced that paying your dues will necessarily make you a better manager) etc etc.

Facts and figures
-The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
-There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches
-Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
-There were five black managers in English professional football last season but, of Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids, only Powell now has a job

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29333826


Done a bit of digging to find out who the 14 black UEFA pro license holders are, and when they qualified:

Noel Blake 2002
Chris Hughton 2002
Hope Powell 2003 (Female, unsure if counted as one of 14)
Terry Connor 2005
Chris Ramsey 2006
Iffy Onoura 2007
Keith Alexander 2007 (Deceased, not counted as one of 14 presumably)
Leroy Rosenior 2007
Nas Bashir 2008 (Not black obviously, but BME)
Darren Moore (Took course in 2011, assuming he completed)
Les Ferdinand (2014?)
Chris Powell 2014
Paul Ince 2014

Not sure who the other couple are but can't find any reference to Chris Kiwomya having a Pro License. Or Carlisle's Keith Curle.

First off, Chris Hughton looks set to become the next Fulham manager if reports are to be believed.

Ferdinand and Ramsey have recently departed Tottenham after long periods as coaches. Noel Blake has just parted ways with England U19 after 5 years. Terry Connor has largely been Mick McCarthy's no. 2 for a number of years. Paul Ince looked decent at MK Dons, but I think last seasons antics at Blackpool might have severely damaged his career.

All of the above 5 (Ferdinand, Ramsey, Blake, Connor and Ince) would be capable and currently qualified for at least management in League 1 or 2 at the least I would imagine. But we simply do not know whether they have applied for such jobs. Perhaps Connor is happy being Mick's no. 2 for now. Perhaps Ramsey and Ferdinand are looking for another backroom role. If a number of these 5 came out and said they'd applied to x number of managerial positions and got nowhere I would say then we would know for sure there is a problem". But as it stands I do not agree with the logic of 'few black managers' automatically = racism.

Obviously, one might argue racism prevents black players from becoming trained coaches, but that was not Gordon Taylor's claim, and Roberts gripe is in relation to managers.

[Extended-Phenotype]

People are f/cking stupid. There isn't a problem, there isn't a problem!

Wtf. There aren't as many black football managers as we should expect. You can't get away from that.

And you can't say it's because 'black people don't make good managers'. So it has to be for another reason. A reason worth finding out, surely? Why do people get so upset and shit themselves when folk show a bit of concern about da black man? He's not going to f/ck your wife or steal your job. Especially if you are f/cking football manager.

[P!ssed Off]

People are f/cking stupid. There isn't a problem, there isn't a problem!

Wtf. There aren't as many black football managers as we should expect. You can't get away from that.

And you can't say it's because 'black people don't make good managers'. So it has to be for another reason. A reason worth finding out, surely? Why do people get so upset and shit themselves when folk show a bit of concern about da black man? He's not going to f/ck your wife or steal your job. Especially if you are f/cking football manager.

The number of Black managers in proportion to professionally qualified black coaches is not an outrageous figure.
Clearly the main problem is the number of black players that go into coaching.
If you want more black players to go into coaching then you should encourage them to do so, not tell them "don't bother, you won't be hired because you're black" as Taylor has just done.

When you look at the teams that have hired a BME manager in the last decade or so:
Newcastle
Blackburn
Wolves
Charlton
Huddersfield
Birmingham
Norwich City
Blackpool
Brentford
Mk Dons
Notts County (3 different full-time non-white mangers in the last 5 years)
Macclesfield Town
Mansfield Town
Lincoln City
Peterborough United
Chester City
Torquay United
Carlisle United
Barnet

England U19s

Cardiff have got Gabbidon as co-caretaker manager right now
Fulham are looking to hire Hughton right now

That's not a tiny number of clubs that have hired a BME manager in the last decade or so, considering the applicant pool of qualified coaches is quite small.

[multisync1830]

chelsea sporting director:

[TBM]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29402375

[Extended-Phenotype]

I know bud, TWO? In the whole league? Sup with that.

[sandman]

Has anyone compared the number of black managers in the football league to the number of black bank managers for example, or the number of black managing directors, or the number of black vicars....in isolation, the number of black football league managers is a meaningless statistic. To understand if there is any form of prejudice, you must compare your case against known statistical evidence.

What would you say if black people were under-represented in other professions as well?

You calling me a racist you small minded twat !. You completely miss the point.... which is Roberts looking to play the race card where there is to cause to do so, that is what I object to.

Come and call me racist to my face if your old enough !

Yes, I am calling you racist. You might not think that black people are sub-human (in fact, I would be shocked if you did), but you are disregarding the obstacles they encounter and saying that inequality is "no oxf*rd issue". You are wilfully supporting racist structures, and that is racist.

Roberts is not "playing the race card". He's pointing out that, somewhere along the line, there is something stopping black people taking managerial positions. I think Ian's analysis is good. Whilst there are reasons why we might not expect the proportion of black managers to line up exactly with the proportion of black footballers (most of which come down to "racism in recent history"), the current numbers seem too low. There's an unexplained difference - and those are indicative of prejudice.

You my friend need to fücking calm down a little bit. My comment was completely based on making a statistical point, it had fück all to with any racist ideology or insinuated anything with a racist undercurrent. It is cünts like you that take offence because you want to be offended. And for your information, my blood is Irish, so along with dogs and blacks, i can say what i oxf*rd like.

at getting aggressive, calling someone names and then telling them that they are the one who needs to calm down..

In fact, just LOL in general, "I've got Irish blood so I can say what I like"

Please say you were just taking the piss out of the equally preposterous MeMeMe