Blueprint for future international success

[Royal Rother]

I suppose all English people, to some extent, would like the national football team to be successful.

As it goes, there is some strange satisfaction to be gained from not seeing us at Euro 2008 as it just illustrates how weak we have become as a footballing force in recent years, despite the supposed Golden Generation and the vast sums of money sloshing around the clubs and their millionaire prima donnas (or is it partly because of that perhaps?)

Do you have any suggestions / ideas on what might create an environment where we might improve things as the next generation are starting to find their way into the professional ranks. What can be done to ensure they perform better than their predecessors?

There is much to be said for the old grass roots restructuring, and encouraging skill factories amongst the very young footballers (even in competitive games) so it doesn't become all about physical strength and size and stamina early in their development, but if you had the power what would you put in place to improve our chances of glory in the next 5 major Championships? They can be a bit wacky and with not the slightest chance in hell of ever happening (like mine) but it would be interesting to see what thoughts are out there.

For what it's worth, my current thoughts are as follows:

The FA should write to every professional footballer qualified to play for England and ask them if they would be prepared to play for their country with absolutely no financial reward whatsoever other than for being successful in major championships, just for the honour of it. The ONLY time they would receive monetary gain paid by the FA is if they reach the Semi-final of Euros or World Cup, when, if they do, they would get paid gargantuan amounts of dosh.

Those who say "Yes I would" go onto a register as being available for selection. From that (hopefully, but not necessarily, huge squad) they whittle it down to selection of perhaps 30 players and then keep them as the international squad for the next 2 years. Get them together, whatever their form, as often as possible and build a rock solid bond between them.

Decide who are the best prospects in the country and invest time and effort, but no appearance fees or income from FA / England related endorsements, and watch what happens. Some of the best players currently in the squad will say "Fcuk off" if the suggestion were put to them, and that says it all really.

Something is missing in the heart of the England football team, it has been for decades, and I think removing all financial incentives (until major success is achieved) could well put it back into the team, albeit quite possibly without some of the best players in the country.

A collective that has heart, desire, a true bond in shared unselfish goals together with commitment to the team and the country and a true burning pride in wearing the 3 Lions shirt would outperform the sad collection of individuals that have pulled them on for 90% of the matches I have suffered through in the last God knows how many years!

What are your ideas?

[Harry Carry]

CALT.

[Kevin Doyles Right Foot]

Too long

















said my missus

[papereyes]

Its not that they're not passionate enough, it is that they're actually not all that great.

About 10th in the World seems about right - most teams they can beat, a few that little bit ahead of them, one or two bogey teams (Sweden, for an example), a few they could beat if they get it right. Have an off-day and Norn Iron, Macedonia and Israel can nick points off them.

What is really, thoroughly depressing is how they are hyped up. Gerrard and Lampard, in the midfield, together, again, as its the best midfield IN THE WORLD when some 21 year old from the old Yugoslavia out plays them in, like, his 10th game for his country? It is even worse that, seemingly because of the hype, the players were played together when it was clear to everyone, except the most patriotic numpty that it didn't work and wasn't going to work. Sure, beat Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago and Ecuador but the moment you play Sweden, a team by all the hype you should beat, you'll fail to beat them. And the moment you get a genuinely good side, like Portugal, France, Germany or Brazil, you will lose. It might take some time, it might seem unlucky, but you will lose. Because for all the running, for all the passion, you are not good enough.

[soggy biscuit]

Its not that they're not passionate enough, it is that they're actually not all that great.

About 10th in the World seems about right - most teams they can beat, a few that little bit ahead of them, one or two bogey teams (Sweden, for an example), a few they could beat if they get it right. Have an off-day and Norn Iron, Macedonia and Israel can nick points off them.

What is really, thoroughly depressing is how they are hyped up. Gerrard and Lampard, in the midfield, together, again, as its the best midfield IN THE WORLD when some 21 year old from the old Yugoslavia out plays them in, like, his 10th game for his country? It is even worse that, seemingly because of the hype, the players were played together when it was clear to everyone, except the most patriotic numpty that it didn't work and wasn't going to work. Sure, beat Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago and Ecuador but the moment you play Sweden, a team by all the hype you should beat, you'll fail to beat them. And the moment you get a genuinely good side, like Portugal, France, Germany or Brazil, you will lose. It might take some time, it might seem unlucky, but you will lose. Because for all the running, for all the passion, you are not good enough.

Couldn't agree more.

England are the international equivalent of Newcastle Utd. Average team with completely delusional fans who through their own blinkered belief (assisted by media hype) have convinced themselves that they are in fact amongst the front runners and are currently just going through a bad patch. Lots of fans, nice history etc but on the field they are actually just not that good. If you never watched a game and only ever knew of England from the fans and the papers you would believe that they truly were up there with the best and equally if you never listened to the media or discussed the England team with anyone and just watched matches you would see them as average and never as a contender to win anything.

Everyone now and again we will have an above average campaign and likewise we will once ni a while have a below par campaign because well, that is what happens in sport.

[cmonurz]

Those who say "Yes I would" go onto a register as being available for selection. From that (hopefully, but not necessarily, huge squad) they whittle it down to selection of perhaps 30 players and then keep them as the international squad for the next 2 years. Get them together, whatever their form, as often as possible and build a rock solid bond between them.

Completely disagree with this part. What about the poor sod who is ranked '31st' of available players, is desperate to play for his country, and scores 60 goals in 2 seasons, whilst a handful of the elite 30 can barely string a pass together? Whether we like it or not, our international side is not 'a football club' and so it can't be run like one.

[sheshnu]

Completely disagree with this part. What about the poor sod who is ranked '31st' of available players, is desperate to play for his country, and scores 60 goals in 2 seasons, whilst a handful of the elite 30 can barely string a pass together? Whether we like it or not, our international side is not 'a football club' and so it can't be run like one.

It's essentially what happens at the moment as well; the 'core' or 15 or 16 players or however many it is will always get picked regardless of form, and there are a few irregulars in every England squad. Getting them together more regularly would of course help but they are constantly required for club duty for most of the year.

[cmonurz]

I think its also worth pointing out that the 'financial incentives' of playing for England are a pittance compared to these players' club salaries. I don't think anyone would say 'sorry, I don't want to play for England' for the sake of a week's wages.

[Hoop Blah]

I agree with a lot of what papereyes says, but I do think the players we have are good enough to compete at the very highest level. However, we do consistently build them up to be more than they are but I don't think that's too much different that any other country is it? Myabe it is, I'm not sure, but the press and the fans in Italy and Spain aren't any different are they?

I do think there is this mental block, probably bought on by the pressure thats built up by the media and the fans, and our players are playing under far too much fear to perform to their best when playing for England. Couple that with some very weak management over the last 5-10 years and we've slipped further into a position where our players think they're better than they are, but the team isn't anywhere near the functioning unit that it should be.

I think the other problem is that we, as a nation, expect us to win everything and, as a whole, we don't often realise other countries don't win every game in the same way as us. Look at the Dutch, Spanish, Argentinians, even the Germans to an extent. Considering the talent that've had at their disposal they've not won enough tournaments and they still lose games on a regular basis. Argentina are currently the top ranked side in the world, but when was the last time they actually won anything? 1993 Copa America's I think.

I do think a little perspective on the problem would help a bit before we try to fix anything.

Having said that we also have the talent to have won a lot more over the last 25 years that I've been watching.

Do we currently have the talent to get to semi-finals, finals and to go on and win tournaments? I think we do but we also lack the flair players that can win a game with a piece of magic, or at least we don't trust them enough to give them the freedom to do it. More importantly we seem obsessed with picking on reputation and shoe-horning the biggest ego's and hype into a side instead of building a team, and a squad, that know how to play, and how to win.

[Vision]

Its not that they're not passionate enough, it is that they're actually not all that great.

About 10th in the World seems about right - most teams they can beat, a few that little bit ahead of them, one or two bogey teams (Sweden, for an example), a few they could beat if they get it right. Have an off-day and Norn Iron, Macedonia and Israel can nick points off them.

What is really, thoroughly depressing is how they are hyped up. Gerrard and Lampard, in the midfield, together, again, as its the best midfield IN THE WORLD when some 21 year old from the old Yugoslavia out plays them in, like, his 10th game for his country? It is even worse that, seemingly because of the hype, the players were played together when it was clear to everyone, except the most patriotic numpty that it didn't work and wasn't going to work. Sure, beat Paraguay, Trinidad and Tobago and Ecuador but the moment you play Sweden, a team by all the hype you should beat, you'll fail to beat them. And the moment you get a genuinely good side, like Portugal, France, Germany or Brazil, you will lose. It might take some time, it might seem unlucky, but you will lose. Because for all the running, for all the passion, you are not good enough.

Couldn't agree more.

England are the international equivalent of Newcastle Utd. Average team with completely delusional fans who through their own blinkered belief (assisted by media hype) have convinced themselves that they are in fact amongst the front runners and are currently just going through a bad patch. Lots of fans, nice history etc but on the field they are actually just not that good. If you never watched a game and only ever knew of England from the fans and the papers you would believe that they truly were up there with the best and equally if you never listened to the media or discussed the England team with anyone and just watched matches you would see them as average and never as a contender to win anything.

Everyone now and again we will have an above average campaign and likewise we will once ni a while have a below par campaign because well, that is what happens in sport.

Agree with both of you.

Obviously not qualifying this time signifies a failure but i'd actually disagree a bit with RR's original point about "how weak we have become as a footballing force in recent years" as 3 consecutive quarter finals in major tournaments previosu to that is actually as consistent a run as we've ever achieved. Its just the monumental hype and money which makes it seem like underachievment.

English football wasn't exactly awash with money when we failed to qualify for successive World Cups in 74 & 78.

Still think it goes back to the very basics of getting kids to actually play "football" and practice their skills and technique without worrying about playing competitive games on pitches too big for them where the biggest and quckest thrive and those that might have the natural ability to progress become disenchanted.

[Royal Rother]

Cheers for the replies, but apart from Vision's comment about kids' football, a comment I made on here myself a couple of days ago, so obviously wholeheartedly agree with, nobody has given any positive input on what they would do.

Picking on individual elements of my post is fair enough, and they are all perfectly reasonable comments, but do we just put it all down to unrealistic expectations? Surely there are some radical ideas out there that might improve our chances of success?

Has the influx of foreign stars in our top league had a negative impact in recent years? - if so, presumably the 6:5 initiative from Mr Blatter might help us a bit, (even though there seems little chance of that being implemented under current EC laws, but possibly little more than it would help other countries.

[Seal]

In my view England are just in the top 10 teams in the world, and consistently have been for many years. This is reflected in our average performance in major tournaments, i.e. the Quarterfinals.

Any occasion where we have surpassed this stage of a tournament is an overachievement -particularly the win in 1966 which was an anomaly on home soil.

We just don’t have the depth of quality of the premium international teams like Brazil, Argentina, Italy and Germany. Whilst we may have one or two ‘world class’ players, we simply don’t have the same number of players who can step up and win a game at the top top level. We also can’t keep possession of the football when put under pressure which is a fairly fundamental flaw…

[Seal]

Cheers for the replies, but apart from Vision's comment about kids' football, which I wholeheartedly agree with, nobody has given any positive input on what they would do.

Picking on individual elements of my post is fair enough, and they are all perfectly reasonable comments, but do we just put it all down to unrealistic expectations? Surely there are some radical ideas out there that might improve our chances of success?

Has the influx of foreign stars in our top league had a negative impact in recent years? - if so, presumably the 6:5 initiative from Mr Blatter might help us a bit, (even though there seems little chance of that being implemented under current EC laws, but possibly little more than it would help other countries.

Ok, here's a point for you on that then. I played kids football at various representative levels - schools, county, clubs etc. Even at that relatively decent level we were told things like 'if in doubt kick it out' or had the manager screaming 'get riiiiiiid!' and 'don't mess about with it there son!' from the touchline.

I think that old school attitude is a fundemental reason why we as a national team are so poor in possession of the football. Our players were drilled for years to not think about passing it in their own third, and instead just hoof it forward. I'm the same generation as most of the current England team, and you can see it in their play.

With the kids coming through now, you would hope that things have changed and become more 'continental' in terms of methods used, and therefore we should see an improvement in these basics in the future. For example, a colleague of mine's son is on the books at Chelsea, and he went to watch their training session the other night, where 9 years kids were being taught to keep hold of the ball and express themselves through their technique, which is a world removed from the style of training I used to get at a similar age.

[papereyes]

Myabe it is, I'm not sure, but the press and the fans in Italy and Spain aren't any different are they?

I'd imagine not, but that doesn't mean that Gerrard and Lampard are, in fact, the two best midfielders in the world. Very good players, yes, but there's something missing. The complete inability to play together in spite of their talents shows that there's something missing. Hargreaves and Barry, both more limited players, fit in alongside one of that pair far better. Hargreaves - because he's a good yet (well, I perceive him to be) humble player, willing to do that work that needs to be done. Barry - because he knows he has to fight to keep his place. Watch Barry playing for England - simple stuff. Gets the ball, moves it on, supports the pass. A skill that is somewhat overlooked in the rough and tumble of the Premiership.

In terms of positive things ...

Better coaching at a younger level, more realistic development of younger players, less emphasis on strength, pace and height at a younger age. The whole 11-a-side at a young age, when players don't have the vision or experience to use the space surely has to change?

In terms of foreign players, although I recognise that there are reasons why players don't go abroad, I think they should. I certainly think managers should look abroad for jobs, to learn different languages and, for a want of a better phrase, footballing cultures. Export our talents as much as we import others.

I think British football plays up its island nature too much. It likes to think itself better, isolated from the rest of the continent. In the 50s, that attitude came back and bit it on the arse. In the 70s, that atttitude came back and bit in on the arse and over this decade, I think its come back and bit it on the arse.

[Sarah Star]

Still think it goes back to the very basics of getting kids to actually play "football" and practice their skills and technique without worrying about playing competitive games on pitches too big for them where the biggest and quckest thrive and those that might have the natural ability to progress become disenchanted.

Maybe we should get the England players to do this more too.

[Royal Rother]

Still think it goes back to the very basics of getting kids to actually play "football" and practice their skills and technique without worrying about playing competitive games on pitches too big for them where the biggest and quckest thrive and those that might have the natural ability to progress become disenchanted.

Maybe we should get the England players to do this more too.

Fair comment but it's probably too late by the time they get into pro-ranks, which may be why Wenger just doesn't go for Engliah kids that much - those skills that he so cherishes have already been knocked out of them (or not sufficiently developed) by the time they reach late teens.

Out of interest for the very first time I got involved in coaching kids last season, my son's U9 team - as U8's they didn't win a game, but despite only having 1 new player this season, my son, the 'keeper, they won their league handsomely and only lost our Plate Final to a last minute own goal having played teams from 1 and 2 leagues above us. I'm not playing a "big I am" card here, it is only minutely down to any impact I might have had on the outfield team, the new head coach is far far more influential than I could ever be in that area, but we work on skills a lot, finding space and passing into space rather than lump it upfield, shooting into the corners rather than kick it as hard as you can, and we have been successful.

In a tiny tiny way we may have shown what can be achieved by taking the right approach to the game!!

[Hoop Blah]

Myabe it is, I'm not sure, but the press and the fans in Italy and Spain aren't any different are they?

I'd imagine not, but that doesn't mean that Gerrard and Lampard are, in fact, the two best midfielders in the world. Very good players, yes, but there's something missing. The complete inability to play together in spite of their talents shows that there's something missing. Hargreaves and Barry, both more limited players, fit in alongside one of that pair far better. Hargreaves - because he's a good yet (well, I perceive him to be) humble player, willing to do that work that needs to be done. Barry - because he knows he has to fight to keep his place. Watch Barry playing for England - simple stuff. Gets the ball, moves it on, supports the pass. A skill that is somewhat overlooked in the rough and tumble of the Premiership.

Yep, totally agree. They're good players but the sycophantic nature of the England squad, and pandering to the big ego's really does hold us back.

In terms of foreign players, although I recognise that there are reasons why players don't go abroad, I think they should. I certainly think managers should look abroad for jobs, to learn different languages and, for a want of a better phrase, footballing cultures. Export our talents as much as we import others.

I do agree it'd add something to our players games, and their mentality, if they more went abroad, but I do wonder if another reason the current generation don't try it is that they actually fear it might see them drop out of the England team. The likes of McMannaman and Hargreaves seem to struggle to really get into the team whilst abroad, and maybe, even if they appear to not try half the time they like the kudos that goes with being in the national side.

Cheers for the replies, but apart from Vision's comment about kids' football, a comment I made on here myself a couple of days ago, so obviously wholeheartedly agree with, nobody has given any positive input on what they would do.

Perhaps because we don't see it as much of a problem?

I totally agree that the coaching of our kids is of paramount importance, and having the national centre given the green light this week can only help improve the quality and consistency of coaching....at least in theory. I do think it's a bit over-rated though, and the real benefit will only come from the quality of coaching the elite kids receive in the academies up and down the country.

Most importantly I think we need a manager who selects a balanced team that gets the best out of the resources we have. That means creating a style and system of play that gets the best out of our players, motivates them and has some contingency for injuries and suspensions that always have an impact in tournament football.

We need an FA that will stand up to the power and the money of the Premier League and the Premier League clubs and managers. Without that the managers hands are tied as he can't make any use of the friendlies if we go back to Sven's era when he gave in to them far too much and the actual games were wasted.

I don't really agree with quota's and restricting the number of foreigners in our game. I think the pool of players available to the manager is pretty good, with the caveat that we need to produce more flair players, and the impact of our players being pushed by the competition that having the best in the world at their clubs is a positive thing.

[sheshnu]

Sounds oh so easy when you relate a story like that, Rothers!

The nation which to my mind has consistently over-achieved in international football for as long as anybody can remember is the Netherlands. So the answer is: do what they do..! I'm no expert so I can't tell you what that is, nor do I know the reasons why nobody seems to be following their model. But it works for them...

[Sarah Star]

I only have a vague idea of how players develop from being youngsters with a love of the game and/or talent into professionals, but it seems to me that things are being done to improve here - well, there's lots of talk about it anyway. What I find it hard to fathom is how to improve our existing team. I don't know if you can.

[papereyes]

Sounds oh so easy when you relate a story like that, Rothers!

The nation which to my mind has consistently over-achieved in international football for as long as anybody can remember is the Netherlands. So the answer is: do what they do..! I'm no expert so I can't tell you what that is, nor do I know the reasons why nobody seems to be following their model. But it works for them...

Except that they've won about as much as England.

Given the size of population - a different story, maybe.