RUMOUR - Danny Graham?

[royalsteve]

We've been down this sort of road many many times in the past - the accounts have been published on here, explained in as much detail as possible EXACTLY where the money has gone and you never ever accepted it.

Do you really think anybody is going to be stupid enough to enter the same debate with you all over again? I think not.

You don't get it, and you never will so please don't ask for explanations you will never accept. Just believe what you want to believe - it's easier that way.

so, where did the money go?

bit naive to believe the accounts are 100% truthful - get a decent accountant and its easy to hide the money legitimately

[Millsy]

We've been down this sort of road many many times in the past - the accounts have been published on here, explained in as much detail as possible EXACTLY where the money has gone and you never ever accepted it.

Do you really think anybody is going to be stupid enough to enter the same debate with you all over again? I think not.

You don't get it, and you never will so please don't ask for explanations you will never accept. Just believe what you want to believe - it's easier that way.

so, where did the money go?

bit naive to believe the accounts are 100% truthful - get a decent accountant and its easy to hide the money legitimately

It doesnt matter anymore I guess. Sir John is going. What's important is how we move forward. I obviously don't want to believe anything in particular, hence asking genuine questions of cypry. I look forward to the answers. And the truth is... If I WANT to believe anything, it's that cat1 status is something quite tangible and believable as a reason. Something that will excite me and make me quite content despite the awful results so far. The easier option is believing everything is ok and there's nothing to shout about, but I want to do so for good reasons, rather than some weak romantic feeling I have for Madesjki because of what he has done for us in the past.

Over to you cypry - please convince us!

[Cypry]

Cypry your input is GREATLY appreciated, certainly by the likes of us who have been disillusioned for several years by the mismatch between investment and stated ambition having to hear total nonsensical rubbish from those who cant see past the good Madejski did in he past. This, if true, is more than enough to turn me from a board bashing pessimist to someone who will be quite happy with little investment even if go down to league 1. But something doesn't seem right so if you could answer the following three question areas that bother me I'd be delighted:

1) Why am I reading about this, quite by accident, on some obscure corner of a forum of HNA by a quite obscure (with all due respect) poster tucked away within a thread? Why is something as momentous and important as this not boldy stated in the team forum? Better still why is it not boldly stated by the club? Why are even players like kebe within the club adamant we should be investing more? Why is our MANAGER so unaware of what is happening by his constant unhappiness about the lack of funds? Surely people in the club should know about this and perhaps tell us, rather than people in the club saying to the media that they're unhappy with investment and some fans reading it by accident in an unrelated thread on an Internet forum. It sounds somewhat fishy. Either it's BS or you're ment to be keeping this quiet- so why are you telling us?

I have made similar comments a number of times in a number of threads (that CAT1 status is the #1 priority) - no conspiracy, I was simply responding here to questions regarding the academy...as for why the club don't sing about it, I really don't know....perhaps they're concerned that if they come out and say that the academy status is their priority, and don't achieve it, then they could end up with egg on their faces (achiving CAT1 is by no means a foregone conclusion and I believe we're a long way short still, some of which is out of control of the club - planning issues etc). I'm sure the manager is quite well aware of what is going on, and in honesty I've not heard him COMPLAIN about a lack of funds - he just states that we spent all we had in the Summer, and may, or may not, have money to spend in January...
As for the players, they have their careers to consider and almost certainly don't give two hoots about the academy...the last thing they want is to be associated with a disastrous Premiership campaign, for some, it might be the only/last chance they get at top flight football. I'm sure (like some fans) they'd much rather the entire club budget was spent on trying to maintain top flight status...
Am I meant to be keeping this quiet? I've not been asked to, and in fairness, nothing that I've shared is exactly "dynamite" - it's just plain common sense...

2) the income from getting to the prem is ENORMOUS, and staying in the Prem is just as ENORMOUS. A couple of freebies with their wages and agents' fees and a few wage increases obviously don't go anywhere close to using up this extra cash (as some muppets try to claim is the case, and your post basically dismisses) so I want to know how much it costs to develop the academy. If it is £2.5million a year that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we should/could be investing on players so how can it stop us investing in players? Can you quantify what sort of investment is required for the academy? If we're talking 10s of millions fair enough. Otherwise it seems nothing more than an excuse. An important excuse but nevertheless an excuse rather than the reason why we're not putting money into players. Again, an excuse is the sort if thing that might crop up on a forum by a club apologist rather than the bold truth, which should've categorically stated in the press to shut us all up.

I have no idea on the total figures to develop the academy, however, I am aware of some of the infrastructure requirements the costs of which are significant...your £2.5M figure is likely to equate to the ANNUAL cost (paying the required 20+ coaches for example) - the infrastructure requirements are on top of this. I'm not going to go into detail here out of respect to my pal at the club, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Suffice to say, Hogwood is not big enough, so we'll be needing a new training ground, local to Reading, with space for at least 17 pitches (any idea how much the land alone might cost?), PLUS we need to lay all the pitches, floodlight some, and provide all of the services/buildings etc....we're talking a VERY significant sum.

3) Presumably having a cat1 status alone will not be enough to lure and keep good players. If academies are no longer catchment based why would any player choose our championship/league 1 cat1 academy instead of Man U's or Chelsea's etc etc? Surely it's only of use if we are a Prem team of some considerable reputation in the first place?

I want to believe you but it sounds fishy and doesn't add up, so please convince me.

I think League 1 is a bit over dramatic, we've not been relegated from the Premier League yet. There is no reason why a young player would choose us over Man U or Chelsea, you're absolutely right, but those clubs will not be able to take unlimited numbers of players. If we have a CAT1 academy, then we'll be one of a select few though, and will at least be "in the game" for better players. After all, what's the alternative? Not having a CAT1 academy, and having to be looking at players ranked outside the top 500-600 in their age group.
Plenty of decent players are choosing Reading today, it's one of the reasons our academy is doing so well throughout the age groups, so there's no reason why this shouldn't continue if we gain CAT1 status...

The next big milestone is in 6-8 weeks time as far as qualification criteria are concerned - perhaps the club will tell us more then?

[Millsy]

Cypry your input is GREATLY appreciated, certainly by the likes of us who have been disillusioned for several years by the mismatch between investment and stated ambition having to hear total nonsensical rubbish from those who cant see past the good Madejski did in he past. This, if true, is more than enough to turn me from a board bashing pessimist to someone who will be quite happy with little investment even if go down to league 1. But something doesn't seem right so if you could answer the following three question areas that bother me I'd be delighted:

1) Why am I reading about this, quite by accident, on some obscure corner of a forum of HNA by a quite obscure (with all due respect) poster tucked away within a thread? Why is something as momentous and important as this not boldy stated in the team forum? Better still why is it not boldly stated by the club? Why are even players like kebe within the club adamant we should be investing more? Why is our MANAGER so unaware of what is happening by his constant unhappiness about the lack of funds? Surely people in the club should know about this and perhaps tell us, rather than people in the club saying to the media that they're unhappy with investment and some fans reading it by accident in an unrelated thread on an Internet forum. It sounds somewhat fishy. Either it's BS or you're ment to be keeping this quiet- so why are you telling us?

I have made similar comments a number of times in a number of threads (that CAT1 status is the #1 priority) - no conspiracy, I was simply responding here to questions regarding the academy...as for why the club don't sing about it, I really don't know....perhaps they're concerned that if they come out and say that the academy status is their priority, and don't achieve it, then they could end up with egg on their faces (achiving CAT1 is by no means a foregone conclusion and I believe we're a long way short still, some of which is out of control of the club - planning issues etc). I'm sure the manager is quite well aware of what is going on, and in honesty I've not heard him COMPLAIN about a lack of funds - he just states that we spent all we had in the Summer, and may, or may not, have money to spend in January...
As for the players, they have their careers to consider and almost certainly don't give two hoots about the academy...the last thing they want is to be associated with a disastrous Premiership campaign, for some, it might be the only/last chance they get at top flight football. I'm sure (like some fans) they'd much rather the entire club budget was spent on trying to maintain top flight status...
Am I meant to be keeping this quiet? I've not been asked to, and in fairness, nothing that I've shared is exactly "dynamite" - it's just plain common sense...

2) the income from getting to the prem is ENORMOUS, and staying in the Prem is just as ENORMOUS. A couple of freebies with their wages and agents' fees and a few wage increases obviously don't go anywhere close to using up this extra cash (as some muppets try to claim is the case, and your post basically dismisses) so I want to know how much it costs to develop the academy. If it is £2.5million a year that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we should/could be investing on players so how can it stop us investing in players? Can you quantify what sort of investment is required for the academy? If we're talking 10s of millions fair enough. Otherwise it seems nothing more than an excuse. An important excuse but nevertheless an excuse rather than the reason why we're not putting money into players. Again, an excuse is the sort if thing that might crop up on a forum by a club apologist rather than the bold truth, which should've categorically stated in the press to shut us all up.

I have no idea on the total figures to develop the academy, however, I am aware of some of the infrastructure requirements the costs of which are significant...your £2.5M figure is likely to equate to the ANNUAL cost (paying the required 20+ coaches for example) - the infrastructure requirements are on top of this. I'm not going to go into detail here out of respect to my pal at the club, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Suffice to say, Hogwood is not big enough, so we'll be needing a new training ground, local to Reading, with space for at least 17 pitches (any idea how much the land alone might cost?), PLUS we need to lay all the pitches, floodlight some, and provide all of the services/buildings etc....we're talking a VERY significant sum.

3) Presumably having a cat1 status alone will not be enough to lure and keep good players. If academies are no longer catchment based why would any player choose our championship/league 1 cat1 academy instead of Man U's or Chelsea's etc etc? Surely it's only of use if we are a Prem team of some considerable reputation in the first place?

I want to believe you but it sounds fishy and doesn't add up, so please convince me.

I think League 1 is a bit over dramatic, we've not been relegated from the Premier League yet. There is no reason why a young player would choose us over Man U or Chelsea, you're absolutely right, but those clubs will not be able to take unlimited numbers of players. If we have a CAT1 academy, then we'll be one of a select few though, and will at least be "in the game" for better players. After all, what's the alternative? Not having a CAT1 academy, and having to be looking at players ranked outside the top 500-600 in their age group.
Plenty of decent players are choosing Reading today, it's one of the reasons our academy is doing so well throughout the age groups, so there's no reason why this shouldn't continue if we gain CAT1 status...

The next big milestone is in 6-8 weeks time as far as qualification criteria are concerned - perhaps the club will tell us more then?

Thanks cypry, appreciated.
In reverse order:

3) fair enough, thanks.

2) fair enough, thanks.

1) it's clearly not common sense as every reading fan I speak to off HNA bemoans our lack of investment in the first team and the academy doesn't get a mention. I'm saying this because I think it is a huge deal, and I'm thanking you for making it more commonly known. I take your point about the players. Brian *seems* irritated in some of his interviews but that doesn't mean anything I guess. He is obviously more concerned about his immediate achievements than ten years down the line.

The wider issue is why we are told about ambition on the one hand, and nothing is seen to be happening on the other. If more of a deal was made about the academy (specifically the importance of cat1, EPPP etc, not some nebulous idea that the academy is important) that would be great, but then that I guess would reduce the number of people turning up. Why turn up to watch a club that is "in the making" and not really going to take anything seriously for the time being? Why would any player join us knowing that we're just biding time really and aren't serious about anything, even premiership survival. I am not criticising the board for this, I think it's reasonable, even if I dont fully agree its the best option. The trouble is that this sort of lie, or I should, say vagueness with the truth breeds mistrust and annoyance with fans. To most it seems very simple- spend the millions at least on some players to keep people interested in RFC. And so it is not for no reason that people are irked and have shown their dissatisfaction with RFC. Can't have it both ways. But I accept it is difficult and I'm not in any way qualified to tell the board what to do, no matter what my emotions tell me.

As Schards says, there is no progress in the foreseeable future, and this seems to be the case if we are to prioritise on the academy. Our focus is one cat1 status. Plain and simple. And good enough for me - for now. If we at least have something on the pitch that keeps us excited to some degree.

I do know you've mentioned this in another thread at least, and I thanked you for it there too. Why not make a new thread in the team section? If the club isn't going to spell it out for the numbskulls like me, perhaps you could?

Thanks for being the first to make some sense to me.

All the best and Merry Christmas to everyone.

[Millsy]

Sorry it's not allowing me to edit.

I was quite happy with this but this last point has been bothering me all night (yes I'm *that* sad!!):

I query the wisdom of putting all our eggs into one basket at the significant expense of not staying up when we clearly have our foot in the door of a very difficult division to get into, a league that will bring us in MILLIONS every year (millions that can continue to go towards cat1)... when

a) "its by no means a foregone conclusion" as you say - so it might not even happen if the assessors dont liek what they see!? -and

b) even if it is, it will presumably take YEARS to find the land, get the planning, build on it etc etc etc....

This is quite a concern and quite nonsensical to me.

At first the cat1 thing looked all good news, but it seems to be such a long haul even if it ever works that again I see little wisdom in the club putting all their eggs into it now.

Convince me back to being happy with again please!

[ZacNaloen]

We could still produce good players out of a cat 2 academy, we are effectively doing it now, with eppp the problem will be keeping the ones we want to keep.

This is why cat 1 status is important. Getting and keeping great players.

That we have to have match specific and expensive criteria us unfortunate but the investment will be worth it in the long run.

[pea]

For what its worth, Brighton are budgeting that their new training/academy complex (11 full size pitches) will cost £29 million

[Royal Rother]

Wow.

[Cypry]

For what its worth, Brighton are budgeting that their new training/academy complex (11 full size pitches) will cost £29 million

Doesn't surprise me, and would support the stuff that I've heard regarding the investment required by us....
Not only do you need the land, but the pitches need to be levelled with appropriate drainage, some of the floodlit, at least one needs to be latest generation AstroTurf (if not more), plus all the services, offices, medical facilities, gyms etc etc etc

The EPPP barrier has been set very high, by the big clubs, in the knowledge that very few clubs outside of their clique will be able to afford the prerequisites....

[Millsy]

Yes and as I say above this will take years to gt the permission and build etc I'm assuming.

Let's say 5 years. £6million per year. How does that mean We should do not much now t make sure we have a chance of guaranteeing a premiership windfall every year?

Or maybe it's £30million+ we need to fork out in the next year or so to buy the land and get the ball rolling? I guess that'd make sense?

[Cypry]

If you're really interested in what's needed, take at look from page 289 of this years Premier League Handbook http://www.premierleague.com/content/da ... 2-2013.pdf

Page 305 onwards details the staffing requirements - worth noting that CAT 1 needs pretty much all of the listed (highly qualified) professionals on a full time basis...

Page 344 onwards deals with facilities, pitches etc...

[Millsy]

Thanks. I think it's a very good thing and support us going for it. I've already spelt out my concerns. I trust we'll be spending on the team in January too given thats also important and cat1 will clearly take years and isn't a foregone conclusion.

[melonhead]

We've been down this sort of road many many times in the past - the accounts have been published on here, explained in as much detail as possible EXACTLY where the money has gone and you never ever accepted it.

Do you really think anybody is going to be stupid enough to enter the same debate with you all over again? I think not.

You don't get it, and you never will so please don't ask for explanations you will never accept. Just believe what you want to believe - it's easier that way.

so, where did the money go?

bit naive to believe the accounts are 100% truthful - get a decent accountant and its easy to hide the money legitimately

conspiracytheorymoron

the money all went into the players pockets

JM didnt take a penny out of the club

give it up

[Stooper]

We brought you the news earlier that Norwich and Reading are keen on Swansea striker Danny Graham, and the forward has now told Sky Sports News that he will hold talks with manager Michael Laudrup over his future at the Liberty Stadium. He said: "I'm 27, it's a short career and I want to be playing games."

Sky Sports understands Reading and Norwich have both made approaches for Swansea City striker Danny Graham.

[bracksroyal10]

Assuming this deal will be worth around £3 million. Good deal considering how well he did for Swansea last season surely we will have to offload someone as well as Church however. You wonder how it will work with Pog and Graham if they played together. Assuming this would be the case for some of our games as first team football is the sole reason that the boy wants to leave.

However Graham would be a good player to have up top on his own too given his physique.

If we stay up think Noel Hunt or J Rob will unfortunately be leaving us given how many strikers we would have.

[No Hoops]

Hunt will be off with Graham replacing him. ( not itk just a guess)

[melonhead]

foolish to let hunt go imo, when roberts is probably 5 months away from retirement

[Pepe the Horseman]

We won't be signing Danny Graham.

[Elm Park Pasty]

I am not sure of the value of spending £2, 3 or 4 Million on a striker when we can't really seem to create a decent number of chances or passes for the 5 or 6 strikers we already have on the books. If our strikers were being presented with chance after chance and missing them all, fair enough, but we are getting stuffed on possession and chances created each week. Do we really need another 6ft plus bloke for chasing shadows each match? If we do not create chances then it puts an additional premium and pressure on finishing those we do create. Everyone would like a striker who buries every chance he gets, but that striker would be worth millions. Really obvious I know but surely if we improve the number of chances we create, it follows that we will improve the number of goals we will score, irrespective of who scores them. I know we missed a couple of chances at 2-1 v Spurs but it is a bit sad that the best through ball that has led to a Reading goal lately came from James Collins of WHU, and it is very indicative when we are talking about 2 chances, TWO chances. It looks like if we feed the Pog he looks capable of scoring, but we cannot really rue a miss if we only give him one chance in the whole 90 minutes

[Alexander Litvinenko]

What we need is a striker who is quite happy and quite effective playing up front on his own as the 1 in our 4-3-2-1.

That means someone who has pace and strength who can win the ball and hold things up until the midfield arrive. They also need stamina to be able to do that all through the game.