I suppose someone should do it...Overrated Players

[Alan Partridge]

I can't believe how posters have gone through 6 pages failing to understand Rich's point: expressed clearly, multiple times, without the need to be cocky and insult, and to call opinions "facts".

Marcus is a fantastic keeper. He's even more amazing compared to what we paid for him (nothing): he might be one of the best free transfer probably one of the best free transfer signings we've ever made. He was a core member of our best ever team, and single-handedly won us many points.

But as Rich said, this thread is about being over-rated. Therefore, it's about how good a player is compared to how he is commonly rated - NOT how much he cost, and not compared to a predecessor (Whitehead). Someone said he'd only take 4 other keepers above him. I don't think it's unrealistic for Rich to believe that Marcus is lower than the 5th best keeper in the Prem. His start to the Prem season has been IMHO mediocre. IMHO as this is all about opinions.

This thread is not about crap players. A crap player is a player everyone thinks is crap. Such a player is fairly rated, because he is as crap as commonly believed. It's not about good players for the opposite reason. Lampard can be one of the best midfielders in England but still overrated.
Almost by definition, if you're considering someone over-rated, there'll be people will disagree with you, since you think the average opinion of the player is too high. So that people disagree with Rich doesn't mean he's wrong.

I'm sure the replies to this will make me wonder why I bothered rational reasoning, but you can always live in hope.

Exactly right BR. Some on here really haven't quite grasped the meaning of 'overrated'.

[Trigger]

Forster had his faults and lots of them, and in terms of teamplay Kitson offers a lot more but you just can't compare them. Would be like comparing say Rooney with Shearer then saying Rooney doesn't score as many as him!!

I don't think it's unfair to compare strikers on goals scored. Forster and Kitson were/are both in Reading's team to score goals. Neither of them plays a Wayne Rooney role, it's disingenuous to talk about Rooney/Shearer.

Different palyers with different strengths. If we had a fit Nicky Forster at 26 years old again, he would be a massive asset to us now.

I agree. I think Forster was a really good player and a scorer of some great goals.

I just think on balance, for his last couple of seasons there were times when Fozzy was in the team on reputation rather than form. Gives me no pleasure to say that though.

[Alan Partridge]

Forster had his faults and lots of them, and in terms of teamplay Kitson offers a lot more but you just can't compare them. Would be like comparing say Rooney with Shearer then saying Rooney doesn't score as many as him!!

I don't think it's unfair to compare strikers on goals scored. Forster and Kitson were/are both in Reading's team to score goals. Neither of them plays a Wayne Rooney role, it's disingenuous to talk about Rooney/Shearer.

Different palyers with different strengths. If we had a fit Nicky Forster at 26 years old again, he would be a massive asset to us now.

I agree. I think Forster was a really good player and a scorer of some great goals.

I just think on balance, for his last couple of seasons there were times when Fozzy was in the team on reputation rather than form. Gives me no pleasure to say that though.

That and the other options were Dean Morgan or Lloyd Owusu.

Forster isn't and never was an out and out goalscorer like Kitson is. Kitson will always score more goals a season than him. Forster is the sort of payer you wouldn't trust in a one on one where he has time to think about it, but if it's on pure instinct and if he has to hit a shot early then he was different class.

Every striker is in the team to score goals but every striker has different attributes and Forster was never that 'poacher'. Curo's record I would have thought would have been considerably better than Fozzy's as well but Forster (IMO) offered a hell of a lot more to us. Curo had to have chances made for him, if you stopped that then we wouldn't score, simple. With Forster even if we were playing utter trash he could do something, produce that bit of magic/individual brilliance and win us a game.

Sadly the injuries and age had taken it's toll and he wasn't even slightly effective towards the end, best for all parties was that he moved on.

[holsgrove breaks a leg]

Caskey every single time- what a waste of space and there was a lot of it! Came highly regarded from Spurs at the then pricey 700,000 tag and in return we got a totally unfit pre madonna who's only saving grace was to bury a few free kicks and pens. His playmaker style never actually took off at Reading- i can remember only on a very few occaisions when he put an incisive ball through to the attackers, where as Osborn in one season was succesful countless times. I would also say Nogan because irrespect of his form leading up to the playoffs it soon became clear that he was not up to standard in that division.

[holsgrove breaks a leg]

To the posters who 'laud' Caskeys achievement of 20 plus goals in the (i think) 1999 season. The fact that is took him 4-5 full seasons for him to make such an impact speaks volumes. Incidentally a big chunk of his goals came from free kicks or pens- hardly effort grinding achievements. His relatively poor following season in a reading team that got to the playoff finals was 'rewarded' when he took the greeedy option no doubt egged on by Eric Hall to gun for Notts County and his fall from grace. Overrated players in my opinion ARE players of the Caskey/Nogan type that had one season of note but over a period of time with the Royals never repeated their supposed form.

[SpaceCruiser]

Man, I cannot believe you. Caskey, for all his faults, still managed to play a fair few games ahead of other players. How many Reading players could you name that could take a mean free-kick and score almost every time? And you are letting the penalties and free-kicks get in the way - I'm sure that a few other goals were from open play.

Also, remind me, didn't we fail to agree about a new contract, then Pardew decided that he wouldn't offer him a new contract at the end of that play-off season. It was only then he started looking around for a new club, I think he was gutted to leave Reading.

Without those 23 goals, we would have been relegated to the basement division. I suppose you would have been happier with that as long as he didn't play.

As for him not making an impact until the later years, well, gee, did you see the teams he played in? I suppose there were fantastic players for him to play with?

[T.R.O.L.I.]

Back to the original question:

Mr always-run-in-a-straight-line - Michael Meaker

[holsgrove breaks a leg]

Man, I cannot believe you. Caskey, for all his faults, still managed to play a fair few games ahead of other players. How many Reading players could you name that could take a mean free-kick and score almost every time? And you are letting the penalties and free-kicks get in the way - I'm sure that a few other goals were from open play.

Also, remind me, didn't we fail to agree about a new contract, then Pardew decided that he wouldn't offer him a new contract at the end of that play-off season. It was only then he started looking around for a new club, I think he was gutted to leave Reading.

Without those 23 goals, we would have been relegated to the basement division. I suppose you would have been happier with that as long as he didn't play.

As for him not making an impact until the later years, well, gee, did you see the teams he played in? I suppose there were fantastic players for him to play with?

When reading were in the doldrums 1997 era, Caskey was one of the more experienced players, thus bigger things should have been expected of him but it never came and he went into his shell like all the other dross with him at that time. People moan at Butler for his form after injury, but it was a career threatening one which he did well to return from. Caskey was plagued by injury and a lot of the time due to bad fitness on his own part. For his pedigree at Spurs and U21 potential, Reading got little change out of the 700,000. All i can say is Pardew saw it coming and well played to him because Caskey was getting on and on a big wage. Notts C took the plunge and it contributed to nearly putting them out the game as he was on so much- i doubt you get may favourable reviews from County fans who from what i remember agree with a lot of Reading fans!

[Tinrib]

I can't believe how posters have gone through 6 pages failing to understand Rich's point: expressed clearly, multiple times, without the need to be cocky and insult, and to call opinions "facts".

Marcus is a fantastic keeper. He's even more amazing compared to what we paid for him (nothing): he might be one of the best free transfer signings we've ever made. He was a core member of our best ever team, and single-handedly won us many points.

But as Rich said, this thread is about being over-rated. Therefore, it's about how good a player is compared to how he is commonly rated - NOT how much he cost, and not compared to a predecessor (Whitehead). Someone said he'd only take 4 other keepers above him. I don't think it's unrealistic for Rich to believe that Marcus is lower than the 5th best keeper in the Prem. His start to the Prem season has been IMHO mediocre. IMHO as this is all about opinions.

This thread is not about crap players. A crap player is a player everyone thinks is crap. Such a player is fairly rated, because he is as crap as commonly believed. It's not about good players for the opposite reason. Lampard can be one of the best midfielders in England but still overrated.
Almost by definition, if you're considering someone over-rated, there'll be people will disagree with you, since you think the average opinion of the player is too high. So that people disagree with Rich doesn't mean he's wrong.

I'm sure the replies to this will make me wonder why I bothered rational reasoning, but you can always live in hope.

Thanks for the lesson in free thinking!

By definition, overrated means ' To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.'

So, the question is Boston, in relation to Rich's post, is where can anyone justify calling Marcus - given for the most part he's been a lower league keeper - 'overrated'. He has been no worse than the majority in the Prem this season. He has no big name billing to live up to.

I appreciate that we're talking about opinions, but opinions are often based on what we know & what we see. Only after the fact can we qualify those, but as Marcus comes with no visable to the outside world ' billy big bollocks ' rating you could never accuse him of being overated.

You're right, we're not talking about how good he comes for crosses or how he kicks the ball. He's better than most I've seen playing for the Hoops, and I'd have him ahead of the majority of Prem keepers. But that reasoning is void.

Its a simple arguement. Rating is based on billing. Marcus never had a big billing; he to my knowledge has never been bigged up to the fans nor the press, and therefore has nothing to be rated against. You cannot accuse him of being overated. In fact as you say he is probably one of the best free's we've seen. Given that I would suggest that he's underrated.

And Boston, peoples opinions are often found to be wrong. Just because they're opinions it does not mean they're not open to examination. Steve tried his best and after telling me about how well/bad Marcus has been playing (not relevent to the question) went on to tell me what other 'people' allegedly thought.

But I could'nt see anything in his posts that qualified his comment. Thats probably because there is no qualification.

You may be thinking rationally, but you're also avoiding the question.

[International Royal]

Come on Caskey is the definition of over-rated. For a supposed midfield star who cost a fortune at the time he did not deliver. If he had been any good then people would have paid money for him or been sniffing around. Who wouldn't have wanted a 'free scoring midfield player'. No one ever came in and he left on a free and went into a downward spiral.

A great bit of business by Spurs. We paid over the odds for a dud. If SC had been the manager he wouldn't have got anywhere near Reading. Today a lot of our players would go for fees over and above what we paid. Caskey was all that was wrong with the club. We bought duds who left on frees. That's not necessarily Caskey's fault it was the duff managers that we had until Pardew came in.

Some people still can't decipher the thread. People who were not rated, for example Meaker, cannot be over-rated.

[holsgrove breaks a leg]

Come on Caskey is the definition of over-rated. For a supposed midfield star who cost a fortune at the time he did not deliver. If he had been any good then people would have paid money for him or been sniffing around. Who wouldn't have wanted a 'free scoring midfield player'. No one ever came in and he left on a free and went into a downward spiral.

A great bit of business by Spurs. We paid over the odds for a dud. If SC had been the manager he wouldn't have got anywhere near Reading. Today a lot of our players would go for fees over and above what we paid. Caskey was all that was wrong with the club. We bought duds who left on frees. That's not necessarily Caskey's fault it was the duff managers that we had until Pardew came in.

Some people still can't decipher the thread. People who were not rated, for example Meaker, cannot be over-rated.

Agree international Royal. With that in mind what is your opinion of Nogan as i would maintain he was over rated, one due to the price tag we paid and secondly that his playoff era form masked his overall ability

[Rich@Eaststand]

Thanks for the lesson in free thinking!

By definition, overrated means ' To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.'

So, the question is Boston, in relation to Rich's post, is where can anyone justify calling Marcus - given for the most part he's been a lower league keeper - 'overrated'. He has been no worse than the majority in the Prem this season. He has no big name billing to live up to.

I appreciate that we're talking about opinions, but opinions are often based on what we know & what we see. Only after the fact can we qualify those, but as Marcus comes with no visable to the outside world ' billy big bollocks ' rating you could never accuse him of being overated.

You're right, we're not talking about how good he comes for crosses or how he kicks the ball. He's better than most I've seen playing for the Hoops, and I'd have him ahead of the majority of Prem keepers. But that reasoning is void.

Its a simple arguement. Rating is based on billing. Marcus never had a big billing; he to my knowledge has never been bigged up to the fans nor the press, and therefore has nothing to be rated against. You cannot accuse him of being overated. In fact as you say he is probably one of the best free's we've seen. Given that I would suggest that he's underrated.

And Boston, peoples opinions are often found to be wrong. Just because they're opinions it does not mean they're not open to examination. Steve tried his best and after telling me about how well/bad Marcus has been playing (not relevent to the question) went on to tell me what other 'people' allegedly thought.

But I could'nt see anything in his posts that qualified his comment. Thats probably because there is no qualification.

You may be thinking rationally, but you're also avoiding the question.

And that's your opinion. It may be right and it may be wrong but you are entitled to it just like I'm entitled to mine.

The difference being that I have tried to be constructive with my points where as you have chosen to be abusive in your posts and don't seem to be able to accept other people not having the same view as you.

I still don't think you get the point I was trying to make even though Boston has explained it to you and am tired of saying the same thing to you over and over again.

[International Royal]

I am fairly neutral on Nogan. I thought he was a reasonably tidy player at times. He had the advantage of joining a good team.

Looking back he was never going to hit the heights but it's hard to judge him as over-rated using the criteria that I have used on Caskey. Nogan cost 250,000 and that was a reasonably fair price, maybe a little over the odds. Again would have got nowhere near a SC team, no matter the division.

Now Steve Moran, that's another case. Totally over-rated and another fee that left on a free. In fact Moran is not far behind Caskey in the waste of money over-rated stakes.

[Boston Royal]

I appreciate that we're talking about opinions, but opinions are often based on what we know & what we see. Only after the fact can we qualify those, but as Marcus comes with no visable to the outside world ' billy big bollocks ' rating you could never accuse him of being overated.

And Boston, peoples opinions are often found to be wrong. Just because they're opinions it does not mean they're not open to examination. Steve tried his best and after telling me about how well/bad Marcus has been playing (not relevent to the question) went on to tell me what other 'people' allegedly thought.

I said I lived in hope, and actually my hope was borne out. Thanks Tinrib for a measured response to my post. I agree with you that opinions can be found to be wrong (or at least illogical); this post did far more to support your opinion and oppose Rich's than previous posts which appeared unnecessarily aggressive.

[papereyes]

Ok. Best thing to do about this is to find out how many clean sheets Phil Whitehead and Marcus Hahnemann (and anyone else you care to mention) have kept. Strap?

My jaw actually hit my desk when I read this, as I wasn't sure if someone could misunderstand the point as much as some of the posts suggested.

But now, with this post, I can clearly see that some have.

[papereyes]

Oh, and wrt BR's post - this thread is designed to get people saying " I disagree". The players selected are going to tend to be the better players, or those with a bit of cult about them. Caskey and Nogan would be good calls, actually.

But there are simply no comparative facts that can be brought into play.

It has also reminded me how bad Hahnemann's kicking is as well as the run of pretty poor/average keepers we had had between Shaka and Hahnemann.

Good things, bad things.

[Rich@Eaststand]

It has also reminded me how bad Hahnemann's kicking is as well as the run of pretty poor/average keepers we had had between Shaka and Hahnemann.

Good things, bad things.

Hahnemann's kicking was one of his strengths when he signed, I don't know why it's so bad now.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

It has also reminded me how bad Hahnemann's kicking is as well as the run of pretty poor/average keepers we had had between Shaka and Hahnemann.

Good things, bad things.

Hahnemann's kicking was one of his strengths when he signed, I don't know why it's so bad now.

What makes you think his kicking is bad? He never ever fails to deal with a back pass, on either his left or right foot.

If its the amount of kicks that go out for a throw you're on about, thats down to instructions and not ability. How many keepers would even attempt to put a 70 yard pass on a six pence when the target is standing 2 yards from the touchline? Some outfield players would struggle with that. He goes for a killer ball that will always fail a lot of the time, and when it does we only concede a throw. Wise up, his kicking is about as good as you will ever get.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Without those 23 goals, we would have been relegated to the basement division. I suppose you would have been happier with that as long as he didn't play.

Good point, Caskey's goals that season turned the fortunes of the club. That was the season that our upward trend started. If it kept us up and led to us being where we are now, thats hardly £700,000 down the pan.

I guess for some people, not being relegated to the 4th division is just overrated.

[Top Flight]

Hughesy!!

You could also argue that Hughes was underrated!