RFC - a total shambles

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Small club mentality and a business before football club ethic is what needs addressing.

I think Johnny M sees the club as 70% business 30% football club.

A 50/50 split is what is required for the time being, we need to stay up and its abvious to all we need to sign some players and soon. If it means a re-think on our wages policy so be it, maybe the business profit targets will have to come up short if we want the football club to remain in the Prem?

And herein lies the REAL crux of the debate; those on the side of SPEND SPEND SPEND to survive in the Prem and HANG the consequences if that strategy fails, to those who say that the club SHOULD be run on sound business principles first to ensure that whatever happens, the club survives in the medium to long term.

I'm curious about one thing though - WHY does the club NEED to stay up??? Relegation doesn't seem to have put Watford or West Brom into administration..........whereas spending vastly outside what is sustainable or realistic has had a dramatic effect on clubs like Leeds, Bradford, Barnsley, Sheffield Weds, Swindon etc etc etc......

Why? Because the whole point is to compete and try and be the best you can.

I don't want us to dither around in the Premiership accepting that staying up and being part of the Premiership cash cow is as good as we can be. I want us to be pushing ourselves all the way to be the best we can. To build a side, within our means, that can battle for a European place or have pretentions of winning a pot here and there.

We don't need to spend spend spend.

We don't need to spend money we don't have.

We just need to buy 2 or 3 players better than what we already.

[Uke]

15 pages of speculation

None of us know what the real corporate aims of the club are, you all spout the 'money is there', 'we must sign players', 'brick by brick' soundbites as if the corporation that is RFC will put its business plan in the open.

(I'm guilty too)

It may well be that having had a taste of the 'Prem demands' they have decided that it is not necessary for the survival of the club long term. Indeed a parachute payment could maybe allow RFC several more years of survival at a profitable rate in the CCC with less risk.

OK it'll piss off fans who think we have a god given right to PL status, but when we compete for crowds and players against the big London clubs could we really survive? Its clear that teh big 4 will split from the Prem sooner rather than later as the other16 teams cannot truly compete financially.

What is truly 'ambitious' from the corporate viewpoint? Silverware or a longer term future and survival for the business? What would be better for the town?

We know the money is there because Madejski and Hammond have stated it is if Coppell wishes to make use of it.

Could they really state anything else in public?

Coppell has come out and said it. He wouldn't if it wasn't the case, he wouldn't make himself look bad to make JM look good.

Also it's crazy to say JM would rather this club was in the Championship than spending some money. He wants to sell this club, it will cost him nearly £100m if we get relagated. He's not that stupid...

It'll cost him similar to maintain the position in the Prem

He's not stupid

It won't cost him a penny. We don't need mass changes, 3 players.

We got how much TV money.

The days of JM having to right cheques to fund the club are long gone.

No but the club now has to write cheques to JM to pay him back, while remaining financially sound enough to stand on its own two feet.

[Huntley & Palmer]

Surely the club has to be a more viable investment if it's guaranteed revenue is higher in the Prem than the Championship though? It's not as if our wage bill is going to drop at the same percentage as our revenue

Wages'll drop further than revenue, therefore it makes sense.

That's going to be some rather interesting negotiation with the players or a crafty solicitor that put a wage reduction clause in some players contracts

[Hoop Blah]

Why? Because the whole point is to compete and try and be the best you can.

I don't want us to dither around in the Premiership accepting that staying up and being part of the Premiership cash cow is as good as we can be. I want us to be pushing ourselves all the way to be the best we can. To build a side, within our means, that can battle for a European place or have pretentions of winning a pot here and there.

Precisely my point, thanks Hoop Blah!

This isn't aimed at you, but fans will always want the glory, the club many not need it

I think you totally right.

But the club IS the fans. A sporting club that doesn't want to improve is pointless as the whole point of sport is to compete and try to win.

I don't think that should be at all costs but if you give up trying to better yourself then they may as well close the doors and wind up the club as far as I'm concerned.

SKDD, I totally agree about the expenditure needed to keep us moving forwards, or at least trying to. We don't need too much right now, but if we don't start to make improvements then the whole team is going to need a more expensive overhaul in the not too distant future.

[Uke]

Surely the club has to be a more viable investment if it's guaranteed revenue is higher in the Prem than the Championship though? It's not as if our wage bill is going to drop at the same percentage as our revenue

Wages'll drop further than revenue, therefore it makes sense.

That's going to be some rather interesting negotiation with the players or a crafty solicitor that put a wage reduction clause in some players contracts

But we're still supopsed to be on championship wages, so no massive reductions.

I wil LOL if Sunderland who are trying to do a WHU go down and are stuck with the huge salaries.

Even WHU are unhappy with their salaries being paid to players. As a result the Egg man was sacked.

[Hoop Blah]

Most of the squad have signed new deals since we were promoted so I think the 'still on championship wages' myth is long gone.

[Uke]

Why? Because the whole point is to compete and try and be the best you can.

I don't want us to dither around in the Premiership accepting that staying up and being part of the Premiership cash cow is as good as we can be. I want us to be pushing ourselves all the way to be the best we can. To build a side, within our means, that can battle for a European place or have pretentions of winning a pot here and there.

Precisely my point, thanks Hoop Blah!

This isn't aimed at you, but fans will always want the glory, the club many not need it

I think you totally right.

But the club IS the fans. A sporting club that doesn't want to improve is pointless as the whole point of sport is to compete and try to win.

I don't think that should be at all costs but if you give up trying to better yourself then they may as well close the doors and wind up the club as far as I'm concerned.

SKDD, I totally agree about the expenditure needed to keep us moving forwards, or at least trying to. We don't need too much right now, but if we don't start to make improvements then the whole team is going to need a more expensive overhaul in the not too distant future.

Yes, but the club has to balance 'disappointing' fans with financial reality

Could we really ever compete with the big 4? In fact who can on a long term basis?

N.B. The expensive overjhaul to rebuild a prem team would be a lot cheaper in the CCC. Not that I'm suggesting that could be a strategy.

[Uke]

Most of the squad have signed new deals since we were promoted so I think the 'still on championship wages' myth is long gone.

Low Prem wages though = high CCC wages

and if we lose some higher earners

[Huntley & Palmer]

Surely the club has to be a more viable investment if it's guaranteed revenue is higher in the Prem than the Championship though? It's not as if our wage bill is going to drop at the same percentage as our revenue

Wages'll drop further than revenue, therefore it makes sense.

That's going to be some rather interesting negotiation with the players or a crafty solicitor that put a wage reduction clause in some players contracts

But we're still supopsed to be on championship wages, so no massive reductions.

I wil LOL if Sunderland who are trying to do a WHU go down and are stuck with the huge salaries.

Even WHU are unhappy with their salaries being paid to players. As a result the Egg man was sacked.

Haven't at least five or six players signed new contracts since then, I can't imagine they settled for the same money and a relegation wage reduction clause. Their wages won't reduce as much as our revenue from TV and sponsorship will though

[Uke]

Surely the club has to be a more viable investment if it's guaranteed revenue is higher in the Prem than the Championship though? It's not as if our wage bill is going to drop at the same percentage as our revenue

Wages'll drop further than revenue, therefore it makes sense.

That's going to be some rather interesting negotiation with the players or a crafty solicitor that put a wage reduction clause in some players contracts

But we're still supopsed to be on championship wages, so no massive reductions.

I wil LOL if Sunderland who are trying to do a WHU go down and are stuck with the huge salaries.

Even WHU are unhappy with their salaries being paid to players. As a result the Egg man was sacked.

Haven't at least five or six players signed new contracts since then, I can't imagine they settled for the same money and a relegation wage reduction clause. Their wages won't reduce as much as our revenue from TV and sponsorship will though

Yes, but some of those will leave for a transfer fee which will give a cash injection to the club equilvalent to a few years 'salary' for other players.

2.6 million = 50k a week for a year = 2x 25k per week... etc

Hunty goes for 5 million, we pick someone up for 2.5 million and have salary paid for two years

[Hoop Blah]

Yes, but the club has to balance 'disappointing' fans with financial reality

Could we really ever compete with the big 4? In fact who can on a long term basis?

N.B. The expensive overjhaul to rebuild a prem team would be a lot cheaper in the CCC. Not that I'm suggesting that could be a strategy.

The balance doesn't seem to be there at the moment. We're making money and saying we have money to spend, but we don't spend it.

Can we compete with the top 4? Not right now we can't no. Will we be able to if we continue to grow over the next 5 or 10 years? Maybe.

Can we aim to compete with the likes of Blackburn, Pompey, West Ham, Villa etc etc? Yes we can. It might be more difficult with some of those clubs having benefactors willing to pump more money in than ours, but we have to keep striving to compete.

I don't see how we would be able to afford to build a Premiership team in the Championship if we can't do it with the foothold we have in it already.

We have a number of Premiership standard players already in this side. We need to add 3 or 4 similarly gifted players to the current side. Attracting those 3 or 4 player will be infinately easier (and cheaper) as a Premiership side than it would be as a Championship side (eg, to sign Dave Kitson now we would have to offer him £25k per week as an existing Premiership side, as a Championship side I'd imagine we'd have to pay 5-10k more than that to get him to drop down a division).

We'd also have to splash out on more players because our proven Premiership stars like Doyle and Shorey would be snapped up by a Premiership side. That would mean we'd end up having to buy in even more players, at even more expense.

Our Premiership status is a our greatest selling point. If we get relegated we're just another mid-table Championship side gunning for a return to the Premiership.

I don't see how any logical arguement can be made for it being cheaper to build a Premiership side in the Championship than doing it now whilst we're in it already.

[Uke]

Our 'model' is Charlton

They yo-yo'ed for many seasons, stuck with their manager and achieved prem stability. This is what we will probably do.

Then their manager left.

[Hoop Blah]

Our 'model' is Charlton

They yo-yo'ed for many seasons, stuck with their manager and achieved prem stability. This is what we will probably do.

Then their manager left.

Times have changed a bit since they yo-yo'd. I don't think relegated players who looked comfortable in the Premiership stay with relegated sides any more. I'm not sure we'd maintain the foundations of a promotion chasing Champsionship side if we were relegated this season.

I still don't see how that would make it any cheaper to rebuild the side in the Championship rather than in the Premiership, unless you mean we'd build a weaker side and therefore it would cost less to build.

[Uke]

Our 'model' is Charlton

They yo-yo'ed for many seasons, stuck with their manager and achieved prem stability. This is what we will probably do.

Then their manager left.

Times have changed a bit since they yo-yo'd. I don't think relegated players who looked comfortable in the Premiership stay with relegated sides any more. I'm not sure we'd maintain the foundations of a promotion chasing Champsionship side if we were relegated this season.

I still don't see how that would make it any cheaper to rebuild the side in the Championship rather than in the Premiership, unless you mean we'd build a weaker side and therefore it would cost less to build.

Good Championship/League 1 players costs plus salary <<<<< Any Prem player costs plus salary

as a result return on Investment is greater - sell on fees, promotion to Prem, TV revenues, next parachute payment, etc...

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

We don't need to spend that much money.

£10m - £15m a season on transfer fees.

Obviously wages add up as well, but seriously we get £60m in TV revenue alone.

We're not going to break the bank.

[RoyalBlue]

Most of the squad have signed new deals since we were promoted so I think the 'still on championship wages' myth is long gone.

Low Prem wages though = high CCC wages

and if we lose some higher earners

I wouldn't bet on the first part - I believe there are some pretty big clubs/payers in the CCC. Not only that but we will still be 'little Reading' etc. etc.

And the higher earners we would lose would also be some of our quality players together with, I suspect, SC.

Being relegated to the CCC at the end of the season would not be a good thing for anyone who genuinely wants RFC to be a PL club. We will not bounce straight back and, as someone else pointed out, in reality it's probably easier to leave the CCC in the opposite direction.

[Uke]

Most of the squad have signed new deals since we were promoted so I think the 'still on championship wages' myth is long gone.

Low Prem wages though = high CCC wages

and if we lose some higher earners

I wouldn't bet on the first part - I believe there are some pretty big clubs/payers in the CCC. Not only that but we will still be 'little Reading' etc. etc.

And the higher earners we would lose would also be some of our quality players together with, I suspect, SC.

Being relegated to the CCC at the end of the season would not be a good thing for anyone who genuinely wants RFC to be a PL club. We will not bounce straight back and, as someone else pointed out, in reality it's probably easier to leave the CCC in the opposite direction.

I know what you mean and would like us to stay prem (N.B. that is a want, not a need!)

But remember, we were accused of having 'bought' promotion with our rich chairman when we were in the CCC last!

[Hoop Blah]

Good Championship/League 1 players costs plus salary <<<<< Any Prem player costs plus salary

as a result return on Investment is greater - sell on fees, promotion to Prem, TV revenues, next parachute payment, etc...

So is that team of good championship players/League 1 players going to be a Premiership side or is it going to be a cheap side for the Championship? Would that side guarentee us a place in the Premiership? Or would it be just one of ten or so sides aiming for promotion?

Your point was that it would be cheaper to rebuild a Premiership side in the Championship as opposed to building it in the Premiership. I still don't see how thats possible.

[ankeny]

Small club mentality and a business before football club ethic is what needs addressing.

I think Johnny M sees the club as 70% business 30% football club.

A 50/50 split is what is required for the time being, we need to stay up and its abvious to all we need to sign some players and soon. If it means a re-think on our wages policy so be it, maybe the business profit targets will have to come up short if we want the football club to remain in the Prem?

And herein lies the REAL crux of the debate; those on the side of SPEND SPEND SPEND to survive in the Prem and HANG the consequences if that strategy fails, to those who say that the club SHOULD be run on sound business principles first to ensure that whatever happens, the club survives in the medium to long term.

I'm curious about one thing though - WHY does the club NEED to stay up??? Relegation doesn't seem to have put Watford or West Brom into administration..........whereas spending vastly outside what is sustainable or realistic has had a dramatic effect on clubs like Leeds, Bradford, Barnsley, Sheffield Weds, Swindon etc etc etc......

Why? Because the whole point is to compete and try and be the best you can.

I don't want us to dither around in the Premiership accepting that staying up and being part of the Premiership cash cow is as good as we can be. I want us to be pushing ourselves all the way to be the best we can. To build a side, within our means, that can battle for a European place or have pretentions of winning a pot here and there.

We don't need to spend spend spend.

We don't need to spend money we don't have.

We just need to buy 2 or 3 players better than what we already.

That can go straight into the first team ,not put out on loan or Coppell saying hes one for the future.If he dont im convinced we wont have one in the prem whatever you lot say.We havent got the time for new recruits to languish in the stiffs.

[sucatraps]

Perception is everything, for many people, fans, players, tv moguls et al there is only the PL. Hoopblah is right in many of the things he says, our place in the PL is the most important priority. It is the most important thing at every level of the business players, finances, presteige, whatever. Whereas the ccc is only important in some areas.........ie being in the top 3 and getting promoted to the errr PL!