Coppell's latest backtrack

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

And what do you think I've claimed then?

Apologies, but with so many people hunting witches to burn, you tend to blur into one after a while.

you seem fairly convinced it's untrue though. What's made you come to your conclusion?

And if your think my estimates are off, what are yours?

[Platypuss]

And what do you think I've claimed then?

Apologies, but with so many people hunting witches to burn, you tend to blur into one after a while.

you seem fairly convinced it's untrue though. What's made you come to your conclusion?

And if your think my estimates are off, what are yours?

I'm a scientist - it's my mindset to challenge assertions made without supporting evidence!

Specifically, I would challenge the £30 million out of his own pocket for the stadium - I believe this was financed by a bank loan, with Mr M under-writing a large portion.

Regardless of this, the stadium and hotel have not disappeared since construction - obviously they still have a considerable asset value and thus the money can not be said to have been "lost".

I honestly have no idea of the actual amount of money Mr Mad has invested/paid into RFC over the years. I didn't claim that I did, either. As others have said - probably only Mr Mad and his accountant truly know.

I'm confident in my belief he hasn't lost £50M though - he's too smart a businessman to do that.

[loyalroyal4life]

I am not sure if this has been disucssed before or does not merit being discussed and hence will be locked but does anyone feel that what sir steve has said about having loyalty to our current players will result in us being relegated??

He said he looked at possibly bringing cahill in, well sir steve judging from the guys performance against us on saturday surely more than looking should of been done!!

[darloroyalbackhome]

Having falling into a state of absolute bewilderment having been beaten at Chesterfield six years previous, Darlo Royal has awoken to find people despondent at being in the Premiership.

Here I was waking up expecting to go to Wrexham next Saturday only to find to my chagrin that we were playing Everton away. What an outrage!. Sack Bert Millichip I say and while you are at it take that awful Mellor with you.

FFS people get a grip.

Now is not the time for getting despondent. We may only have another 3 more months of Prem football in us and God only knows how long it may take us to get here again but can we please try and do our utmost to at least have it for one more year after this.

Being able to say I told you so when you say it in the context of us going down won't make that beer taste half as good after the last game as it will when it's in the context of us staying up.

ps for those of you that i've not said hello to in a long time, you know who you are and there it is.

DR

[The whole year inn]

Having falling into a state of absolute bewilderment having been beaten at Chesterfield six years previous, Darlo Royal has awoken to find people despondent at being in the Premiership.

Here I was waking up expecting to go to Wrexham next Saturday only to find to my chagrin that we were playing Everton away.

[Royal Rother]

And what do you think I've claimed then?

Apologies, but with so many people hunting witches to burn, you tend to blur into one after a while.

you seem fairly convinced it's untrue though. What's made you come to your conclusion?

And if your think my estimates are off, what are yours?

I'm a scientist - it's my mindset to challenge assertions made without supporting evidence!

Specifically, I would challenge the £30 million out of his own pocket for the stadium - I believe this was financed by a bank loan, with Mr M under-writing a large portion.

Regardless of this, the stadium and hotel have not disappeared since construction - obviously they still have a considerable asset value and thus the money can not be said to have been "lost".

I honestly have no idea of the actual amount of money Mr Mad has invested/paid into RFC over the years. I didn't claim that I did, either. As others have said - probably only Mr Mad and his accountant truly know.

I'm confident in my belief he hasn't lost £50M though - he's too smart a businessman to do that.

I think you are spot on.

Losing £50m when there is no need to would be a little foolish and JM has never been accused of being that by anyone (well not by anyone who has more than a single brain cell - WSF and Ideal therefore excused). But the fact remains that it is his money and his support that has taken the club to where it is today, not that of the fans.

Oh, and welcome back Darlo - I remember you...

[Huntley & Palmer]

I'm a scientist - it's my mindset to challenge assertions made without supporting evidence!

Specifically, I would challenge the £30 million out of his own pocket for the stadium - I believe this was financed by a bank loan, with Mr M under-writing a large portion.

Regardless of this, the stadium and hotel have not disappeared since construction - obviously they still have a considerable asset value and thus the money can not be said to have been "lost".

I honestly have no idea of the actual amount of money Mr Mad has invested/paid into RFC over the years. I didn't claim that I did, either. As others have said - probably only Mr Mad and his accountant truly know.

I'm confident in my belief he hasn't lost £50M though - he's too smart a businessman to do that.

I think you are spot on.

Losing £50m when there is no need to would be a little foolish and JM has never been accused of being that by anyone (well not by anyone who has more than a single brain cell - WSF and Ideal therefore excused). But the fact remains that it is his money and his support that has taken the club to where it is today, not that of the fans.

Oh, and welcome back Darlo - I remember you...[/quote]

While I would agree with both of you, the fans money did go a considerable way to helping. I remember the then quoted 15k every home game figure from Mr Mad required in the stadium to break even, that must have been around the 99/00 season. So while not taken the club to where it is today, it's certainly aided it's flight

[Royal Rother]

I am NOT a bloody scientist! (I'm a false dichotomist!)

[Huntley & Palmer]

I am NOT a bloody scientist! (I'm a false dichotomist!)

Damned three quote limit rule

[Huntley & Palmer]

Something that has stood out for me is the use by our rivals of the loan market this window to bolster their sides at little cost/long term risk. Coppell himself has acknowledged that loans make financial sense.

So why haven't we used the loan market inwards?

I only just realised that Anthony Gardner joined Everton on loan for the rest of the season. Surely an example of a player that would work out well for us as a loan.

[West Stand Man]

My recollection is that every year (except the last reported one) since he took over the club has made a loss and he has underwritten it?

The important things is, regardless of his motives (and I for one can't see anything wrong with his in this instance), he took over a grubby little football club with no ambition, virtually no assets, going down a plughole fast, and he built a PL team and club out of that mess. There were many more certain ways of gaining fame than taking a risk like that.

It is amazing how fickle the human race is. Throughout history we have turned on good men when something they are doing is not quite what we want - even when uit is better than we expected at the time. Even Winston Churchill was dumped by the people of Britain after the war - and pilloried in some circles for not doing more.

[RoyalBlue]

My recollection is that every year (except the last reported one) since he took over the club has made a loss and he has underwritten it?

The important things is, regardless of his motives (and I for one can't see anything wrong with his in this instance), he took over a grubby little football club with no ambition, virtually no assets, going down a plughole fast, and he built a PL team and club out of that mess. There were many more certain ways of gaining fame than taking a risk like that.

Name one such way that will get your name known in virtually every household around the world that has an interest in football? How else does a businessman win international fame? Successful as JM is, he is not a Bill Gates!

Alan Sugar has done The Apprentice etc, he was also Chairman of a company that sold consumer electronics products but I suspect that through his involvement with RFC and the branding of the stadium, JM is now a wide known name. So what is the lower level risk approach to achieving such fame?

As for losses, maybe the club has 'lost' money every year, but does that necessarily mean the Chairman has also lost money? I ask the question but I do not know the answer. Does anyone?

Returning to Mr Sugar, I used to own shares in Amstrad and it was interesting to see in the accounts how Amstrad used to make considerable payments to other companies. IIRC an example of this was payments made to Amshold, which again IIRC was wholly owned by AMS himself. Accountants are very clever people and earn their large salaries by making the money of their employers work in the most effective way possible.

[West Stand Man]

Name one such way that will get your name known in virtually every household around the world that has an interest in football?

Oh dear, oh dear. Who said that fame is restricted to those households with an interest in football? I certainly didn't. Take That are quite famous in households with no interest in football, Richard Branson is too, as is Jordan (though I suspect that adding 2 overgrown appendages to his chest was not in the JM plan), and I could go on. George Bush, Lewis Hamilton, and many more people in many more areas are well known by the masses; and none of them risked their fortunes by taking on the financial sump that is represented by a football club.

[Platypuss]

as is Jordan (though I suspect that adding 2 overgrown appendages to his chest was not in the JM plan).

He employed Bullivant and Burns, which is about as close as makes no difference.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

And what do you think I've claimed then?

Apologies, but with so many people hunting witches to burn, you tend to blur into one after a while.

you seem fairly convinced it's untrue though. What's made you come to your conclusion?

And if your think my estimates are off, what are yours?

I'm a scientist - it's my mindset to challenge assertions made without supporting evidence!

Specifically, I would challenge the £30 million out of his own pocket for the stadium - I believe this was financed by a bank loan, with Mr M under-writing a large portion.

Regardless of this, the stadium and hotel have not disappeared since construction - obviously they still have a considerable asset value and thus the money can not be said to have been "lost".

I honestly have no idea of the actual amount of money Mr Mad has invested/paid into RFC over the years. I didn't claim that I did, either. As others have said - probably only Mr Mad and his accountant truly know.

I'm confident in my belief he hasn't lost £50M though - he's too smart a businessman to do that.

the evidence would be a stadium and hotel that got built without any obvious means of the club of paying for them.

Yes he could have taken out a £30 million loan, but the interest charges on that would be horrendous. Yes, everything he's ever paid out could have been re-arranged as loans that need paying back. Until the moment when all that money is paid back, and he can sell the business without that debt hanging over it, he has effectively lost money. i.e. if £5 million has been paid back, and he's still owed £25 million, if that debt knocks £25 million of the value of the business when he sells it, he has effectively lost £25 million.

If, on the other hand, he has increased the value of the club by over £25 million in that time, it could be said that it's worked out as an investment. You'd have to balance that out over how much he could have expected to make on £30 million if invested in other interests over 10 years. Nobody would invest that amount of money over that amount of time to break even.

Given that the club really needs to be in the premier to make any kind of profit, and have any chance of being sold as a valuable business, it beggars belief to suggest that JM would withhold available funds when doing so would have such a potentially damaging effect on his investment.

Given that even when the stadium was built, playing in the premier was still regarded as being an outside bet for a generation or so, it makes building the stadium with the intention of making a significant return on that investment a very risky strategy. That's undoubtedly why the business community, who'd he'd hoped to get soft loans off to pay for the stadium initially, clearly laughed in his face when he came calling.

Still, if anyone wants to join SDR and West Stand Prat in making "Coppell Out!" and "Madejski must Go!" banners in readiness for the Villa match than that's really their perogative. Forget the last 18 years, or a mere four years in Coppell's case - the events at Reading FC have been unacceptable for a whole month now and clearly a change is required.

[Royal Rother]

as is Jordan (though I suspect that adding 2 overgrown appendages to his chest was not in the JM plan).

He employed Bullivant and Burns, which is about as close as makes no difference.

[RoyalBlue]

Name one such way that will get your name known in virtually every household around the world that has an interest in football?

Oh dear, oh dear. Who said that fame is restricted to those households with an interest in football? I certainly didn't. Take That are quite famous in households with no interest in football, Richard Branson is too, as is Jordan (though I suspect that adding 2 overgrown appendages to his chest was not in the JM plan), and I could go on. George Bush, Lewis Hamilton, and many more people in many more areas are well known by the masses; and none of them risked their fortunes by taking on the financial sump that is represented by a football club.

Don't tell me that Richard Branson did not take financial risk (albeit not with a football club) he also risked his life on more than one occasion - thus increasing his fame. Even so, is he known that widely outside of the UK? And do you really think JM would have become such a well known name so quickly (if ever at all) through any of the routes you suggest?!

Was the financial risk really that great the moment the club bought the rubbish tip off RBC for a nominal sum? Do you not think there have been accountants working hard to minimise exposure to risk from the very first day?

I maintain that this was not a purely philantropic gesture. The relationship between JM and RFC is symbiotic at the very least.

Now if you really want to see someone who risked and lost a considerable sum of money saving RFC from extinction, without having anything named after him, look no further than Roger Smee.

[Platypuss]

I'm a scientist - it's my mindset to challenge assertions made without supporting evidence!

Specifically, I would challenge the £30 million out of his own pocket for the stadium - I believe this was financed by a bank loan, with Mr M under-writing a large portion.

Regardless of this, the stadium and hotel have not disappeared since construction - obviously they still have a considerable asset value and thus the money can not be said to have been "lost".

I honestly have no idea of the actual amount of money Mr Mad has invested/paid into RFC over the years. I didn't claim that I did, either. As others have said - probably only Mr Mad and his accountant truly know.

I'm confident in my belief he hasn't lost £50M though - he's too smart a businessman to do that.

the evidence would be a stadium and hotel that got built without any obvious means of the club of paying for them.

Yes he could have taken out a £30 million loan, but the interest charges on that would be horrendous. Yes, everything he's ever paid out could have been re-arranged as loans that need paying back.

I'll you think you'll find that that is exactly the case. I'm sure that others with better memories than I will have the actual facts of the situation directly to hand.

If RFC goes bankrupt and has no value, then yes, all that money he has put in will have been "lost".

However, here in the the real world of February 2008 it certainly isn't and instead he owns outright a rather sizeable asset.

Or do you think he really is stupid enough to have written off £50M?

[West Stand Man]

A sizeable asset that only holds real value as a sports stadium. As a piece of land with a hotel on it is isn't worth anything like as much.

The one comment that I agree with wholeheartedly is that this is a symbiotic relationship. Both the club and JM do get something out of this, and part of the club's benefit is the risk that he has taken with his cash to bale it out.

Oh, and Roger Smee lost money because his building firm went broke. The evidence from that is just how risky being the owner of a football club is. When his company went to the wall he was left with a further millstone to offload and did so by asking JM to carry the club's debts. Hence, JM has taken massive risk in underwriting those debts at a time when there was absolutely no indication they'd ever be secure.

I stand by my view that there were other, less risky, ways of him investing his money if he just wanted fame.

As an aside, I remember a good quote from JM in the early 2000s. When asked how he got a small fortune he replied ' By starting with a large fortune and then buying a football club'!

[Dirk Gently]

Sorry, I missed this section of the thread until now or I would have contributed earlier. The figures for JM's investment which have been bandied about are always extremely high, and I suspect that people are always happy to let them appear that way.

According to my figures (plus what "Heaven on Earth" reports), JM bought 51% of the club in 1990/91 for a total of £306K, plus he paid off existing debts of about £1M.

The loss in 90/91 was £964,858, and the following season was £320K.

The 94/95 loss was just £150K, and in 95/96 there was a profit of £202,190 (the sales of Shaka etc).

Broken down, that's a balance of £1.63 M for the 4 "Elm Park" years I have figures for. Let's assume that the other 4 (and buying the other 40% he owns were the same, so that's a total outlay of £3.27M for the 8 years at the MadStad.

Regarding building the MadStad, from what I know, the total cost of this project was £37M. The land itself cost just £1, but there was £6M for decontaminating the ground and £6M contribution towards the A33. So the build cost was about £25M.

£3.25M was raised by the sale of Elm Park, and all except £10M came from the sale of the land for the business and retails parks (i.e. about £23.75 M)

So I make it that JM was down more no than £10 M on the whole enterprise in the end (or just over £1M a year for "naming rights" if you want to look at it that way.) Another view is to consider the value of such an "enabling development" - it has cost Pete Winkleman (and Wimbledon FC supporters!) a much greater sum to build a retail park in Milton Keynes - but I digress!

So his total outlay until we moved was approx £13.27M for the Elm Park years and the MadStad. Since then, figures are hard to find, but let's assume we lost a million a year for the Tier 2 & 3 years (which I think is an over-estimate since losses would be offset by the hotel and conference centre). That's an extra £7 in losses, so I can't see that JM has put in very much more than just over £20 million in the 16 years he's been in charge.

I'd also suspect that he's now well and truly in the black on the whole deal, and he also owns s well as now owning a saleable asset worth in excess of £100 million. Not criticising him, BTW - he saw the opportunity and took it.