Emerse Fae

[Coppelled Streets]

Why have you got sa picture of North Stand when your name is Southbank Old Boy?

[Vision]

I agree we don't see many of Coppell's signings come in and set the world on fire (although it could be argued that the likes of Duberry, Gunnarsson, Doyle, Lita, Long, Ingimasson and Kitson all did excatly that) and that a lot of the issues this year seem to be because Coppell is being so loyal to his old guard. Is it just the case that Coppell needs time to mould players into the role he needs them to play, or is it that he won't give his new players a chance because he hasn't convinced himself their good enough when he signs them?

It's a bit of a mystery, although I'm not sure he's any different to anyother manager in that sense, as those players I've mentioned above all made a pretty immediate impact.

I'd definitely argue about whether the names you've listed made an immediate impact. Certainly Doyle and Lita hit the ground running but Kits took nigh on 3 months to score his first goal for us whilst Duberry & Gunnarsson were purchased as squad men anyway and Long went straight into the Academy. Ingi to be fair was pretty solid when he came in.

I think its a bit of both with Coppell, just because he's invested money in you doesn't mean you go straight to the front of the queue for a 1st team spot (Halford and Fae appear on the surface to have a problem grasping that) and he's not a manager to chop and change so if you are not in 1st 11 then you're not gonna get into it on the basis of squad rotation alone.

And where has that "calibre" and "experience" got them? (not to mention the money it cost).

The original point was that other clubs, and Wigan was the example given, could find players to bring in. Obviously it's a bit of a case of horses for courses because all clubs situations are different, but perhaps the question should be where would they be without adding those players?

We have areas in our team that we probably wanted to strengthen. We didn't even though we're told that funds were available etc etc, I was just agreeing that other teams seem to be able to get players in when they feel they need to. We just seem to huff and puff then say there wasn't anyone willing to come to little old Reading.

You're absolutely right we've no idea how Wigan as an example would have got on without that investment but what i'm saying that even with that investment they are still in a pretty perilious position despit finishing in the top 10 in their first season. They had more "championship calibre" players then yet have managed to be significantly worse without them.

To be fair we could both argue in equal in measure for what "might have been" but i just find it strange when people (and i'm not including you) seem to think that by not forking out similiar money we have automatically thrown away our chances of survival. There are plenty of examples where it has worked for clubs and equally there are plenty when it hasn't.

For me Coppell from day 1 has never managed to get the best from "calibre" players. The 3 highest calibre players we've probably had in our history were Goater,Keown & Ferdinand and Coppell was unable to any of them to offer anything positive to our cause. I just think if we really want to go that way, he's not the manager to make it work.

[Wycombe Royal]

I was just agreeing that other teams seem to be able to get players in when they feel they need to. We just seem to huff and puff then say there wasn't anyone willing to come to little old Reading.

But you are missing a major point. These other teams, taking Wigan as the example you used, signed all these players and yet are no better than us. So it begs the question - would they have made any difference to us because it seems apparent that they aren't any better than we already have. So should the club spend money on players like that just for the sake of it to make it look like they have ambition and to appease the fans (although those same fans would then criticise the club for wasting money and bringing in crap players).

[Southbank Old Boy]

I'd definitely argue about whether the names you've listed made an immediate impact. Certainly Doyle and Lita hit the ground running but Kits took nigh on 3 months to score his first goal for us whilst Duberry & Gunnarsson were purchased as squad men anyway and Long went straight into the Academy. Ingi to be fair was pretty solid when he came in.

All of them (bar Long) came straight into the team/squad and where involved pretty much week-in week-out, Kitson maybe the least of that group as he was eased in a little bit more, but I was talking more of playing games and featuring in the team as making an impact. Duberry and Gunarsson immediately came into the squad and did the job they were bought for, with Long obviously taking a few more months to get in the team as expected.

Our more recent signings haven't even done that really.

You're absolutely right we've no idea how Wigan as an example would have got on without that investment but what i'm saying that even with that investment they are still in a pretty perilious position despit finishing in the top 10 in their first season. They had more "championship calibre" players then yet have managed to be significantly worse without them.

To be fair we could both argue in equal in measure for what "might have been" but i just find it strange when people (and i'm not including you) seem to think that by not forking out similiar money we have automatically thrown away our chances of survival. There are plenty of examples where it has worked for clubs and equally there are plenty when it hasn't.

For me Coppell from day 1 has never managed to get the best from "calibre" players. The 3 highest calibre players we've probably had in our history were Goater,Keown & Ferdinand and Coppell was unable to any of them to offer anything positive to our cause. I just think if we really want to go that way, he's not the manager to make it work.

You're right thats probably not something that Coppell is going to have much success in. Does that, to pull out an old cliche, mean he's probably taken us as far as he can? We need to bring in some better quality players if/when we stay up and it seems so far that Coppell can't do that here at Reading for some reason.

[Southbank Old Boy]

I was just agreeing that other teams seem to be able to get players in when they feel they need to. We just seem to huff and puff then say there wasn't anyone willing to come to little old Reading.

But you are missing a major point. These other teams, taking Wigan as the example you used, signed all these players and yet are no better than us. So it begs the question - would they have made any difference to us because it seems apparent that they aren't any better than we already have. So should the club spend money on players like that just for the sake of it to make it look like they have ambition and to appease the fans (although those same fans would then criticise the club for wasting money and bringing in crap players).

The problem is we don't know if those players would've made us a better side. We can have opinions on whether they would or not, and I happen to think a couple of those players would improve our side let alone our squad, but the point is that players can be attracted to clubs of our ilk.

I don't think anybody has really asked the club to sign players just for the sake of it. But when we're having to field a midfield containing 4 of Convey, Harper, Hunt, Matejovsky or Oster because we have nobody else available I think there is a strong case for the arguement that we've left ourselves short of a player or two for the run in.

[Wycombe Royal]

I was just agreeing that other teams seem to be able to get players in when they feel they need to. We just seem to huff and puff then say there wasn't anyone willing to come to little old Reading.

But you are missing a major point. These other teams, taking Wigan as the example you used, signed all these players and yet are no better than us. So it begs the question - would they have made any difference to us because it seems apparent that they aren't any better than we already have. So should the club spend money on players like that just for the sake of it to make it look like they have ambition and to appease the fans (although those same fans would then criticise the club for wasting money and bringing in crap players).

The problem is we don't know if those players would've made us a better side. We can have opinions on whether they would or not, and I happen to think a couple of those players would improve our side let alone our squad, but the point is that players can be attracted to clubs of our ilk.

I don't think anybody has really asked the club to sign players just for the sake of it. But when we're having to field a midfield containing 4 of Convey, Harper, Hunt, Matejovsky or Oster because we have nobody else available I think there is a strong case for the arguement that we've left ourselves short of a player or two for the run in.

You also miss out Gunnarsson and Cisse who are more than capable of playing central midfield, plus Doyle on the right wing.

You may laugh at my suggestion of Gunnarsson, but with him in the side we picked up more points than we are now (and far more than Wigan were).

[Southbank Old Boy]

You also miss out Gunnarsson and Cisse who are more than capable of playing central midfield, plus Doyle on the right wing.

You may laugh at my suggestion of Gunnarsson, but with him in the side we picked up more points than we are now (and far more than Wigan were).

I missed them out because I was talking about recent games where Gunnarsson has been injured/suspended and Cisse was having to play at centre half because we didn't have anyone else the manager trusted to play there.

[Vision]

I'd definitely argue about whether the names you've listed made an immediate impact. Certainly Doyle and Lita hit the ground running but Kits took nigh on 3 months to score his first goal for us whilst Duberry & Gunnarsson were purchased as squad men anyway and Long went straight into the Academy. Ingi to be fair was pretty solid when he came in.

All of them (bar Long) came straight into the team/squad and where involved pretty much week-in week-out, Kitson maybe the least of that group as he was eased in a little bit more, but I was talking more of playing games and featuring in the team as making an impact. Duberry and Gunarsson immediately came into the squad and did the job they were bought for, with Long obviously taking a few more months to get in the team as expected.

Our more recent signings haven't even done that really.

There's no way anyone expected Doyle to figure in the 1st team straight away and he probably wouldn't have done if Kitson hadn't got injured. Certainly he was purchase more for the future than the present. Gunnarsson had an injury when we signed him and it was at least a month before he played for us. Long went straight into the reserves.

Of the recent signings Rosenior, Matejovsky & Kebe have all pretty much gone into the squad at the first obvious opportunity so i'm not sure things are all that different really

You're absolutely right we've no idea how Wigan as an example would have got on without that investment but what i'm saying that even with that investment they are still in a pretty perilious position despit finishing in the top 10 in their first season. They had more "championship calibre" players then yet have managed to be significantly worse without them.

To be fair we could both argue in equal in measure for what "might have been" but i just find it strange when people (and i'm not including you) seem to think that by not forking out similiar money we have automatically thrown away our chances of survival. There are plenty of examples where it has worked for clubs and equally there are plenty when it hasn't.

For me Coppell from day 1 has never managed to get the best from "calibre" players. The 3 highest calibre players we've probably had in our history were Goater,Keown & Ferdinand and Coppell was unable to any of them to offer anything positive to our cause. I just think if we really want to go that way, he's not the manager to make it work.

You're right thats probably not something that Coppell is going to have much success in. Does that, to pull out an old cliche, mean he's probably taken us as far as he can? We need to bring in some better quality players if/when we stay up and it seems so far that Coppell can't do that here at Reading for some reason.

Depends if you believe that you can only progress by spending big money rather than those rather old fashioned virtues of coaching, man management and teamwork. I'm not sure how much money it would take for a "money manager" to get Reading FC to 8th place in the country. It also depends on your definition of progress and of course success. In my view for a club like ours retaining our top flight status for 3 seasons would signify a huge success and only then should we be realistically be looking at really investing in high end players to really make our mark. Even then in an ideal world it would be coupled with a solid base of players that we have nurtured and improved ourselves.

[Southbank Old Boy]

Depends if you believe that you can only progress by spending big money rather than those rather old fashioned virtues of coaching, man management and teamwork. I'm not sure how much money it would take for a "money manager" to get Reading FC to 8th place in the country. It also depends on your definition of progress and of course success. In my view for a club like ours retaining our top flight status for 3 seasons would signify a huge success and only then should we be realistically be looking at really investing in high end players to really make our mark. Even then in an ideal world it would be coupled with a solid base of players that we have nurtured and improved ourselves.

Personally I think you have to have players who have enough ability to survive at this level as a basis to work from. I'm not sure we have enough of them.

Do we have enough legs in the side to continue to outrun the opposition like we did at times last season? I'm not sure we do, and I'm not sure we are able, or have enough time (short term or long term) to nurture players sucessfully into a winning formula because the margins are so much smaller in the Premiership that we can't build a team like the 106 point team over a few seasons. If we're looking to build in that way I think we've left it too late to add a couple of players (eg we should've had Sidwell's replacement in the squad last season).

It's all a bit frustrating, although I'm still amazed we're in this league altogether!

[Vision]

Depends if you believe that you can only progress by spending big money rather than those rather old fashioned virtues of coaching, man management and teamwork. I'm not sure how much money it would take for a "money manager" to get Reading FC to 8th place in the country. It also depends on your definition of progress and of course success. In my view for a club like ours retaining our top flight status for 3 seasons would signify a huge success and only then should we be realistically be looking at really investing in high end players to really make our mark. Even then in an ideal world it would be coupled with a solid base of players that we have nurtured and improved ourselves.

Personally I think you have to have players who have enough ability to survive at this level as a basis to work from. I'm not sure we have enough of them.

Do we have enough legs in the side to continue to outrun the opposition like we did at times last season? I'm not sure we do, and I'm not sure we are able, or have enough time (short term or long term) to nurture players sucessfully into a winning formula because the margins are so much smaller in the Premiership that we can't build a team like the 106 point team over a few seasons. If we're looking to build in that way I think we've left it too late to add a couple of players (eg we should've had Sidwell's replacement in the squad last season).

It's all a bit frustrating, although I'm still amazed we're in this league altogether!

Too true. To answer the question i believe we do have the time to nurture what we have but we may have to do it whilst suffering a relegation and hope to bounce back ala Charlton, Bolton, Blackburn and Boro from even further back and perhaps in the way Watford are progressing now. As we both know , there's no divine right to be in the top tier and no way that realistically a club of our size can spent enough money to guarantee it but relegation needn't mean we're automatically going to sink into oblivion as some seem to think.

I agree with you on another thread as well that as Wigan have found whatever division we're in next season we will lose at least 1 major player at the end of the season (probably Shorey).

[Archie's penalty]

Depends if you believe that you can only progress by spending big money rather than those rather old fashioned virtues of coaching, man management and teamwork. I'm not sure how much money it would take for a "money manager" to get Reading FC to 8th place in the country. It also depends on your definition of progress and of course success. In my view for a club like ours retaining our top flight status for 3 seasons would signify a huge success and only then should we be realistically be looking at really investing in high end players to really make our mark. Even then in an ideal world it would be coupled with a solid base of players that we have nurtured and improved ourselves.

Personally I think you have to have players who have enough ability to survive at this level as a basis to work from. I'm not sure we have enough of them.

Do we have enough legs in the side to continue to outrun the opposition like we did at times last season? I'm not sure we do, and I'm not sure we are able, or have enough time (short term or long term) to nurture players sucessfully into a winning formula because the margins are so much smaller in the Premiership that we can't build a team like the 106 point team over a few seasons. If we're looking to build in that way I think we've left it too late to add a couple of players (eg we should've had Sidwell's replacement in the squad last season).

It's all a bit frustrating, although I'm still amazed we're in this league altogether!

Too true. To answer the question i believe we do have the time to nurture what we have but we may have to do it whilst suffering a relegation and hope to bounce back ala Charlton, Bolton, Blackburn and Boro from even further back and perhaps in the way Watford are progressing now. As we both know , there's no divine right to be in the top tier and no way that realistically a club of our size can spent enough money to guarantee it but relegation needn't mean we're automatically going to sink into oblivion as some seem to think.

I agree with you on another thread as well that as Wigan have found whatever division we're in next season we will lose at least 1 major player at the end of the season (probably Shorey).

All this well-argued, balanced sense on the team board! What a change it makes - well done people!

[MartinRdg]

what? becuase i think they are pretty good?

pennies.

Pay peanuts you get monkeys as the phrase goes.

thats just a pointless saying


you can quite easily pay in platinum and get monkeys too
or get monkeys that a year later turn into great footballers

Racist!

[Victor Meldrew]

Just a couple of points:-
IIRC Kitson was injured when he arrived so the taking of 3 months to score probably had more to do with his injury.
I wonder if Coppell's reluctance to put players straight into the first team is explained to players that we try to sign,e.g Taylor,Lescott,Mensah etc and they thought "Why sign for that club when we might not get to play for ages,do they really want us?"
Just a thought as we seem to find it so difficult to get players to come here.
Cisse,Fae,Marek and Kebe probably didn't understand what our people were saying and believed they would go straight into the first team,after all none of them speak great English.

[Vision]

Just a couple of points:-
IIRC Kitson was injured when he arrived so the taking of 3 months to score probably had more to do with his injury.
I wonder if Coppell's reluctance to put players straight into the first team is explained to players that we try to sign,e.g Taylor,Lescott,Mensah etc and they thought "Why sign for that club when we might not get to play for ages,do they really want us?"
Just a thought as we seem to find it so difficult to get players to come here.
Cisse,Fae,Marek and Kebe probably didn't understand what our people were saying and believed they would go straight into the first team,after all none of them speak great English.

Kitson was injured for a couple of weeks after joining but for the next 2 months was only used as a sub until he scored on his first start at Cardiff. Therefore underlining my point that even people who are assumed to be signings for the immediate first team are bedded in very slowly by Coppell. He was kept out of the side by the much more expensive and supposedly higher calibre figure of Shaun Goater. So much for the monkeys and peanuts analogy.

Both Kebe and Matejovsky have been involved a lot earlier than some players that other posters assumed were immediate signings.

Cisse has frequently been highlighted as one of Coppell's "wretched signings" by some yet was in the side as early as the 2nd game of the season where he was ludicrously sent off and therefore suspended, shortly afterwards he was injured and required surgery, so to be honest he's adapted about as quickly as anyone could reasonably expect (albeit in a different position to the one we all thought)

[Archie's penalty]

Just a couple of points:-
IIRC Kitson was injured when he arrived so the taking of 3 months to score probably had more to do with his injury.
I wonder if Coppell's reluctance to put players straight into the first team is explained to players that we try to sign,e.g Taylor,Lescott,Mensah etc and they thought "Why sign for that club when we might not get to play for ages,do they really want us?"
Just a thought as we seem to find it so difficult to get players to come here.
Cisse,Fae,Marek and Kebe probably didn't understand what our people were saying and believed they would go straight into the first team,after all none of them speak great English.

Kitson was injured for a couple of weeks after joining but for the next 2 months was only used as a sub until he scored on his first start at Cardiff. Therefore underlining my point that even people who are assumed to be signings for the immediate first team are bedded in very slowly by Coppell. He was kept out of the side by the much more expensive and supposedly higher calibre figure of Shaun Goater. So much for the monkeys and peanuts analogy.

Both Kebe and Matejovsky have been involved a lot earlier than some players that other posters assumed were immediate signings.

Cisse has frequently been highlighted as one of Coppell's "wretched signings" by some yet was in the side as early as the 2nd game of the season where he was ludicrously sent off and therefore suspended, shortly afterwards he was injured and required surgery, so to be honest he's adapted about as quickly as anyone could reasonably expect (albeit in a different position to the one we all thought)

All hail to Vision the King of reason! Can you post more on the boards please?

[papereyes]

I know many transfers are a risk, in fact mostly all of them, but he and Halford do smack of poor scouting to me.

But how can you or I judge him when he has barely played.

Sorry, but if we have two record signings that play about 20 games between them before being moved on, then there's something wrong. Watching every training session doesn't make the end product (i.e. not very much) any different.

[papereyes]

People like Ideal will never ever learn.

Up until precisely 120 minutes of football ago, Cisse had looked even less of a prospect than Fae.

Oddly, those minutes came in a different position to the one we signed him for.

I'm genuinely not sure what to make of Cisse and Fae. At the moment, they are down as 'not producing enough' on my balance sheet but I genuinely hope that that will change.

[papereyes]

but Drogba was allowed to consistently play and was actually pretty laughable in his first season, got slowly better and suddenly blossomed. If Fae doesn't play, his contract will run out before he has a chance to prove himself. I dont understand how we can track people for so long and as soon as we get them they're not good enough to get in the first team, especially for the money we paid.

The one thing I find funny about Drogba is that, in hindsight, it was all so obvious.

First season 16 goals. Not many strikers score that many. 10 goals off 18 Premiership starts is more impressive.

Second season: 16 goals again. And, again, not many strikers score that many, especially with Crespo and Lampard both also in double figures. 12 in 20 starts is about the same as the previous season.

Third season: 33 goals - a genuine shift in quality but the real improvement came in Europe and in the cups and that he had doubled his appearances (20 Premiership goals in 32 Premiership starts).

[papereyes]

We are still a small club, not much bigger than Wigan in the end. Which great players have they brought in over the last couple of years? Heskey = not bad, Koumas?

They've bought in plenty of decent players over the last two or three seasons. Some have paid off, some haven't. Some have been established and some have been gambles similar to ours. The they've been willing and able to bring them in is the big difference though.

Here's some 'highlights' from Wigans transfers

Chimbonda, Scharner, Henri Camara, Fitz Hall, Ryan Taylor, Henchoz, De Zeeuw, Kirkland, Kilbane, Michael Brown, Marlonn King etc etc

You know, if we signed Chimbonda, Scharner and Henchoz over the summer, I don't think we'd be 3rd bottom.


PS + 3

[Chillitsphil]

People suggest Drogba was poor - not the case imho.

First season - second best goals to minutes ratio in the EPL, behind Thierry Henry

Second season - top assister in the EPL

Not bad.

At the end of season two I sat with some people and discussed Drogba quoting these facts, while they suggested he was not even fit to play for Bolton. Epic LOLage when he scored for fun in season three.