Back from the game - Coventry (H)

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Woodcote Royal
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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Woodcote Royal » 03 Dec 2008 22:57

Ian Royal Not at all, I mean using the whine "playing favourites" to explain why a player is in the team because you don't have the wit to see what benefits he brings is tragic.


As I said sometime back, I've stuck up for James Harper many times in the past and know he brings a lot to the team when he's at his best.

However, these days we have several other options and our central midfield is currently looking suspect. Just because I think others should be ahead of him doesn't mean I think Harper's cr@p..............once again, I just want to see our best side.

You don't have to agree with my views but your responses are becoming increasingly childish.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Vision » 04 Dec 2008 10:17

Woodcote Royal We have players in better form than James Harper for a hotly contested spot in central midfield and whilst that department continues to malfunction, all of Marek, Gunnarsson and Karacan have every right to feel hard done by.


But does it really "continue to malfunction" though?

Apart from Southampton in which pretty much the whole side were poor then the actual contributions from the central midfield 2 haven't been that bad have they?.

Against Coventry despite being outnumbered did they ever actually get to threaten our back 4? Would suggest they were pretty well protected to me. Cardiff against 10 men for an hour?. Sheff Utd away ? Bristol City away? Derby at home?

Given that the central midfield has also produced goals and assists in those recent games then i think suggesting its malfunctioning is a bit over the top . If you're looking for it to control and dictate possession and play then i'm afraid you're going to be disappointed because as a team we're not set up that way. Sure they give the ball away at times but thats as much down to trying to maintain the tempo that Coppell wants as much as it is down to the individuals themselves. Until we change that way of playing (and why would we want to given our record under Coppell) then regardless of personnel our central midfield will always disappoint those that are expecting it to play in a different way.

Coppell's "favouritism" for Harper I suspect is simply because he does what his manager (and teammates) ask of him and not what the fans necessarily think he should be doing.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by philM » 04 Dec 2008 11:18

rabidbee Anyone worked out what Noel's truffle-shuffle celebration was all about?


The Sky commentator said at the time.. "Not sure about the celebrations, but he won't care Noel Hunt" which confused me even more :lol:

Last edited by philM on 04 Dec 2008 15:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Woodcote Royal » 04 Dec 2008 11:28

Vision
Woodcote Royal We have players in better form than James Harper for a hotly contested spot in central midfield and whilst that department continues to malfunction, all of Marek, Gunnarsson and Karacan have every right to feel hard done by.


But does it really "continue to malfunction" though?

Apart from Southampton in which pretty much the whole side were poor then the actual contributions from the central midfield 2 haven't been that bad have they?.

Against Coventry despite being outnumbered did they ever actually get to threaten our back 4? Would suggest they were pretty well protected to me. Cardiff against 10 men for an hour?. Sheff Utd away ? Bristol City away? Derby at home?

Given that the central midfield has also produced goals and assists in those recent games then i think suggesting its malfunctioning is a bit over the top . If you're looking for it to control and dictate possession and play then i'm afraid you're going to be disappointed because as a team we're not set up that way. Sure they give the ball away at times but thats as much down to trying to maintain the tempo that Coppell wants as much as it is down to the individuals themselves. Until we change that way of playing (and why would we want to given our record under Coppell) then regardless of personnel our central midfield will always disappoint those that are expecting it to play in a different way.

Coppell's "favouritism" for Harper I suspect is simply because he does what his manager (and teammates) ask of him and not what the fans necessarily think he should be doing.


I don't take issue with many of your points and I'm sure that Coppell feeling that Harper knows what is required is a big part of why he gets so much preference. I know, too, that being out numbered in the centre most weeks will always make it difficult for us to dominate this area. I'm in favour of the sacriface because, as you say, it makes us more potent down the flanks.

However, yes, IMHO the central midfield did malfunction on Monday to a point that will cost us games against better sides and, ultimately, promotion.

Whereas in the past we had few options in central midfield Coppell is now spoilt for choice and, it should be remembered that giving Karacan his chance was one of the moves that kick started our season.

Furthermore, our best result so far, by a distance, was 3-0 away to Wolves which was achieved with Karacan and Gunnarsson in the centre. As one of the few who was there that night, I hadn't seen us look so strong in a long time and the scoreline didn't flatter us.

I'm not on a Harper witch hunt I just want his manager to use all the resources at his disposal and not to revert to the unjustified loyalty that cost us so dearly last season.

He admitted recently that we've started to look vulnerable well, Steve, if you've got a tape of that night in Wolverhampton, perhaps you should take another look and consider whether your "Harper must play" policy is justified or, indeed, that he might not be the only central midfielder who knows what is required and has the ability to carry it out.

Perhaps it was no coincidence that, at Molineux, we employed two central players who are better defensively than Harper and this worked well in compensating for the more attack minded Kebe . Perhaps Marek isn't the answer for tough assignments on our travels but picking Harper regardless isn't going to help in answering these questions and why we have, indeed, looked more vulnerable recently.

At Wolves we looked more than good enough to gain promotion with a good chance of staying there......................... I wish that had been the case on Monday night.
Last edited by Woodcote Royal on 04 Dec 2008 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by rabidbee » 04 Dec 2008 11:40

To be fair, any pair of central midfielders were going to be outnumbered by an extra man in midfield on Monday night. That wasn't the CMs' fault, it was the fault of the coaching staff for not getting another player (Doyle or Noel being the obvious ones) to cover the spare man.


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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Franchise FC » 04 Dec 2008 11:51

rabidbee To be fair, any pair of central midfielders were going to be outnumbered by an extra man in midfield on Monday night. That wasn't the CMs' fault, it was the fault of the coaching staff for not getting another player (Doyle or Noel being the obvious ones) to cover the spare man.



FAULT !!!!????

We did actually win the game. What fault could there be ? Why would we have given up the attacking options for the sake of the midfield when we won anyway ?

:roll:

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by rabidbee » 04 Dec 2008 11:55

I was responding specifically to this point:

Woodcote Royal However, and firstly, yes, the central midfield malfunctioned on Monday to a point that will cost us games against better sides and, ultimately, promotion.


And I'm only suggesting that - when we didn't have the ball - one of the pair could have stood near/marked number 7. It's not really that much of a loss of attacking options.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Dick Habbin's hairdo » 04 Dec 2008 12:11

Steady on, Vision, those last couple of posts are far too sensible and analytical for here.

Of course, you are spot on.

I think everyone agrees that Marek is the most gifted player we have but, as you explain so well, he doesn't fit into the two wide in midfield structure.

Harper has the thankless task of closing space which he does pretty well.

The only issue I had on Monday is that we were not quite killing space quick enough and were playing a little too deep for the first 20 mins or so.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Vision » 04 Dec 2008 12:17

Woodcote Royal

I don't take issue with many of your points and I'm sure that Coppell feeling that Harper knows what is required is a big part of why he gets so much preference. I know, too, that being out numbered in the centre most weeks will always make it difficult for us to dominate this area. I'm in favour of the sacriface because, as you say, it makes us more potent down the flanks.

However, yes, IMHO the central midfield did malfunction on Monday to a point that will cost us games against better sides and, ultimately, promotion.

Whereas in the past we had few options in central midfield Coppell is now spoilt for choice and, it should be remembered that giving Karacan his chance was one of the moves that kick started our season.

Furthermore, our best result so far, by a distance, was 3-0 away to Wolves which was achieved with Karacan and Gunnarsson in the centre. As one of the few who was there that night, I hadn't seen us look so strong in a long time and the scoreline didn't flatter us.

I'm not on a Harper witch hunt I just want his manager to use all the resources at his disposal and not to revert to the unjustified loyalty that cost us so dearly last season.

He admitted recently that we've started to look vulnerable well, Steve, if you've got a tape of that night in Wolverhampton, perhaps you should take another look and consider whether your "Harper must play" policy is justified or, indeed, that he might not be the only central midfielder who knows what is required and has the ability to carry it out.

Perhaps it was no coincidence that, at Molineux, we employed two central players who are better defensively than Harper and this worked well in compensating for the more attack minded Kebe . Perhaps Marek isn't the answer for tough assignments on our travels but picking Harper regardless isn't going to help in answering these questions and why we have, indeed, looked more vulnerable recently.

At Wolves we looked more than good enough to gain promotion with a good chance of staying there......................... I wish that had been the case on Monday night.


I'm still not convinced that what we saw Monday night was a malfunctioning central midfield considering despite being outnumbered the Coventry central midfield (which fairly recently outplayed a Birmingham side who according to some are Premiership in all but name) were not allowed to create any danger for our back four. Equally from an attacking perspective Cisse scored and a Harper interception and pass set Hunt away for the 3rd goal. I'd say they pretty much did the job asked of them.

I take your point about the Wolves game but the Cisse/Harper combination at Bristol City and Sheff Utd was equally as good (Cisse scoring in both these games btw).

Equally, after Wolves Gunnarsson and Jem played in the Preston defeat, a pretty insipid display (worse than Monday for sure) against the bottom club in the division and an equally insipid one against QPR. It only confirms to me that our central midfield is pretty much the same regardless of the personnel within it. In those games you couldn't honestly make a case for the Gunnar/Jem partnership being significantly better than the Cisse/Harper one.

Now i'm a big fan of Karacan and my personal preference would be for him to play purely because i believe he is the future of this club. However i just don't think within the system we play, it will make that much difference this season as you do and equally i can understand why Coppell for the time being is happy with the Cisse/Harper partnership. That actually raises a theory i've had with Coppell and how he is almost obsessed with "pairings" but thats probably for another thread.


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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by rabidbee » 04 Dec 2008 12:20

^^^^ Agreed 100%.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Bill Oddie's Beard » 04 Dec 2008 12:22

rabidbee Anyone worked out what Noel's truffle-shuffle celebration was all about?

Apparently it was for his ill mate, he said he'd do the truffle shuffle if he scored.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Archie's penalty » 04 Dec 2008 12:27

Vision
Woodcote Royal

I don't take issue with many of your points and I'm sure that Coppell feeling that Harper knows what is required is a big part of why he gets so much preference. I know, too, that being out numbered in the centre most weeks will always make it difficult for us to dominate this area. I'm in favour of the sacriface because, as you say, it makes us more potent down the flanks.

However, yes, IMHO the central midfield did malfunction on Monday to a point that will cost us games against better sides and, ultimately, promotion.

Whereas in the past we had few options in central midfield Coppell is now spoilt for choice and, it should be remembered that giving Karacan his chance was one of the moves that kick started our season.

Furthermore, our best result so far, by a distance, was 3-0 away to Wolves which was achieved with Karacan and Gunnarsson in the centre. As one of the few who was there that night, I hadn't seen us look so strong in a long time and the scoreline didn't flatter us.

I'm not on a Harper witch hunt I just want his manager to use all the resources at his disposal and not to revert to the unjustified loyalty that cost us so dearly last season.

He admitted recently that we've started to look vulnerable well, Steve, if you've got a tape of that night in Wolverhampton, perhaps you should take another look and consider whether your "Harper must play" policy is justified or, indeed, that he might not be the only central midfielder who knows what is required and has the ability to carry it out.

Perhaps it was no coincidence that, at Molineux, we employed two central players who are better defensively than Harper and this worked well in compensating for the more attack minded Kebe . Perhaps Marek isn't the answer for tough assignments on our travels but picking Harper regardless isn't going to help in answering these questions and why we have, indeed, looked more vulnerable recently.

At Wolves we looked more than good enough to gain promotion with a good chance of staying there......................... I wish that had been the case on Monday night.


I'm still not convinced that what we saw Monday night was a malfunctioning central midfield considering despite being outnumbered the Coventry central midfield (which fairly recently outplayed a Birmingham side who according to some are Premiership in all but name) were not allowed to create any danger for our back four. Equally from an attacking perspective Cisse scored and a Harper interception and pass set Hunt away for the 3rd goal. I'd say they pretty much did the job asked of them.

I take your point about the Wolves game but the Cisse/Harper combination at Bristol City and Sheff Utd was equally as good (Cisse scoring in both these games btw).

Equally, after Wolves Gunnarsson and Jem played in the Preston defeat, a pretty insipid display (worse than Monday for sure) against the bottom club in the division and an equally insipid one against QPR. It only confirms to me that our central midfield is pretty much the same regardless of the personnel within it. In those games you couldn't honestly make a case for the Gunnar/Jem partnership being significantly better than the Cisse/Harper one.

Now i'm a big fan of Karacan and my personal preference would be for him to play purely because i believe he is the future of this club. However i just don't think within the system we play, it will make that much difference this season as you do and equally i can understand why Coppell for the time being is happy with the Cisse/Harper partnership. That actually raises a theory i've had with Coppell and how he is almost obsessed with "pairings" but thats probably for another thread.


If you wrote a column regularly for the Chronicle you would improve the standard of its analysis by 200 %.

Do you have a blog?

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Ian Royal » 04 Dec 2008 13:25

Woodcote Royal
Ian Royal Not at all, I mean using the whine "playing favourites" to explain why a player is in the team because you don't have the wit to see what benefits he brings is tragic.


As I said sometime back, I've stuck up for James Harper many times in the past and know he brings a lot to the team when he's at his best.

However, these days we have several other options and our central midfield is currently looking suspect. Just because I think others should be ahead of him doesn't mean I think Harper's cr@p..............once again, I just want to see our best side.

You don't have to agree with my views but your responses are becoming increasingly childish.


I fully accept your views and arguements in that way. You have some very good points that are hard to disagree with, although clearly we'd be doing different things. For the record on this thread I'd be playing 3 across the middle because I think it would get the best out of Harper, Marek and one of Gunnar, Karacan or Cisse.

It's the favourites line I take exception to, although to your credit you don't use this very much, certainly not to the extent of many who's only arguement seems to be "Harper is shit, he's only in because he's Coppell's lovechild".

Have to say that Vision is coming across as a genius on this thread. I completely agree with his last post.


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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Woodcote Royal » 04 Dec 2008 16:52

Ian Royal For the record on this thread I'd be playing 3 across the middle because I think it would get the best out of Harper, Marek and one of Gunnar, Karacan or Cisse.


That is certainly an alternative and one I'd like to see him try from the bench.

When he takes off Noel Hunt (almost the norm these days) replace him with Marek rather than Long and give him a free role behind Doyle................has he tried this before?

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by rabidbee » 04 Dec 2008 16:54

Yeah, I'm sure he has actually, but I can't remember off hand which game it was. Actually, I think Kébé came off and Doyle or Noel switched to the right wing.

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by bishbosh92 » 04 Dec 2008 20:13

Bloody Cold Monday

thought first 15 mins coventry were better and rightly deserved there lead which was i brillaint free kick btw. but its woke us up and noel and stephen played amazing and linked up well for our last goal.

Cisse cnt stop scoring atm depsite giving the ball away to much, doyle was surprisinly quite as he was marked out of the game but kebe had another good performance provide da cross for cisse goal.

all in all it werent ar best performance but da 3 points count and im confident 4 barnsle on sat

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Franchise FC » 04 Dec 2008 20:18

bishbosh92 Bloody Cold Monday

thought first 15 mins coventry were better and rightly deserved there lead which was i brillaint free kick btw. but its woke us up and noel and stephen played amazing and linked up well for our last goal.

Cisse cnt stop scoring atm depsite giving the ball away to much, doyle was surprisinly quite as he was marked out of the game but kebe had another good performance provide da cross for cisse goal.

all in all it werent ar best performance but da 3 points count and im confident 4 barnsle on sat


Can someone translate please ?

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by S09Royal » 04 Dec 2008 20:36

philM
rabidbee Anyone worked out what Noel's truffle-shuffle celebration was all about?


The Sky commentator said at the time.. "Not sure about the celebrations, but he won't care Noel Hunt" which confused me even more :lol:



What does his tattoo say?

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bishbosh92 Bloody Cold Monday

thought first 15 mins coventry were better and rightly deserved there lead which was i brillaint free kick btw. but its woke us up and noel and stephen played amazing and linked up well for our last goal.

Cisse cnt stop scoring atm depsite giving the ball away to much, doyle was surprisinly quite as he was marked out of the game but kebe had another good performance provide da cross for cisse goal.

all in all it werent ar best performance but da 3 points count and im confident 4 barnsle on sat


Can someone translate please ?

Despite a few spelling mistakes, i understand pretty much everything he's saying. :roll:
Having said that about the spelling mistakes, mate, we are in ENGLAND, please try and type in standard English and stop typing like you've never had an english lesson in your life. I can see how some people don't understand what you've typed BB92.
That's all :D

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by bishbosh92 » 04 Dec 2008 20:45

lol fair commented

i no my grammers shit

but its beina teenager its easier

but ill try lol :L

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Re: Back from the game - Coventry (H)

by Ian Royal » 04 Dec 2008 22:23

bishbosh92 lol fair commented

i no my grammers shit

but its beina teenager its easier

but ill try lol :L


:lol: "That's a fair comment to make, I know my grammar is poor, but I am a teenager and so that means I don't make an effort with anything, because I'm lazy.

I will try harder next time."

That was marginally better by the way.


Over to the grammar gestapo to, in turn, tear me to shreds. All's fair... etc.

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