Birmingham away...The facts

[londinium]

I amfed up with people saying x y and z are crap, gave the ball away, made no contribution or sold him a hospital ball with no facts to back things up. So I watched the game again this evening and for all those idiots out there, mainly Harper haters, these are the facts.

Harper misplaced passes throughout the game 3
Cisse '' '' 3
Doyle '' '' 4

Harper tackled 0
Cisse tackled 3
Doyle tackled 3


Haper fouls conceded 2
Cisse fouls conceded 4
Doyle fouls conceded 1

Peoples impression on the game was that Cisse was immense and that Harper was between ok and shite.

First half Cisse touched the ball 5 times of which twice he game the ball away and once he was tackled
Harper touched the ball 10 times gave the ball away twice too but was not tackled at all.

As for the ball played from Harper to Cisse in the second half that led to the Brum goal, it certianly wasnt a hospital ball Cisse received it easily, shrugged off the first challange with ease and then dithered with it for an age before being tackled/fouled.

As a foot note its strange how you see the game after watching it a second time as I thought Long was fairly poor Saturday and in fact he ran his socks off held the ball up well and got into some great positions.

[TFF]

Cheers James

[Archie's penalty]

Nice research. Interesting to see how some of the usual suspects respond in the morning...

[winchester_royal]

Statistics mean feck all.

[londinium]

Statistics mean feck all.

Why did I expect you to come back with that one.... was it you who said that Harper was shite saturday and he misplaced loads of passes??

Probably.

Statistics mean a lot unless it doesnt suit your arguement of course.

[londinium]

Cheers James

Thats ok... if people want to dig the knife into Harps with no foundation to their arguement then I am happy to defend him with hard facts.

Just to add a bit more to the arguement, he played more balls forwards than Cisse did! Fact.

[Archie's penalty]

Statistics mean feck all.

Why did I expect you to come back with that one.... was it you who said that Harper was shite saturday and he misplaced loads of passes??

Probably.

Statistics mean a lot unless it doesnt suit your arguement of course.

Well done for fighting the good fight Londinium. I think we would miss Harper more than anyone bar Doyle should he leave in the window.

[winchester_royal]

Actually I think Harper was good on saturday, and think he is vital to the team's cause, however statistics like that do not show anything of any note.

[SLAMMED]

“If the facts don’t fit the theory, change the facts.” — Albert Einstein

[Thomas L'Heureux]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

EDIT: May I also quickly add that the two players you've compared Harper to, Cisse and Doyle, both scored on Saturday, which is pretty much the object of the game. I know that to a certain degree you can't have one without the other, but in my opinion, scoring goals in more important than successfully passing the ball ten yards to a team mate situated in your own half, under no real pressure.

[winchester_royal]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

Spot on.

[Archie's penalty]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

Spot on.

Not entirely no. I think Harper has been fine this season. When pray tell has he ever been anything other than what he is now?

[winchester_royal]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

Spot on.

Not entirely no. I think Harper has been fine this season. When pray tell has he ever been anything other than what he is now?

No where in that post is it saying Harper has been crap, just that the statistics do not prove anything.

[OLLIE KEARNS]

I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.

[Vision]

I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.

Pretty much nailed.

[Dirk Gently]

I have to smile at all of the Harper debates. I spent 15 years playing CM in non league football and so watch that position with added interest. The one key point would be that you have to watch what the player is doing when he doesn't have the ball to really understand the role. When an attack breaks down your CM players have to be smart enough to immediately drop into positions to delay a counter attack. They also need to be extremely fit to do that over 90 minutes. Delaying an attack doesn't always mean making a tackle because that can lead to even bigger trouble. For example, Iver tried to tackle Phillips in that key CM area on Saturday and missed. The result is lots of players out of position which results in dangerous situations as the opposition breaks on you. The more effective action is to delay the attack and force a sideways / backwards pass which in turn allows the rest of the team to recover their positions.
In addition to this the a CM player will be required to keep possession well and pick the occasional forward run when genuine space opens up. Something that Harper is especially good at as goals v Blackburn, Boro, Liverpoool, Wigan, Man City etc demonstrate. Remember also that making dozens of forward runs in a game will only impair your ability to do the key part of the role which is prevent opposition breaking on you. You have to pick your forward runs in that role.
All in all Haper is extremely fit, reads the game very well, organises those around him, rarely wastes a forward run and keeps possession. He is a good player ! If you still have the Brum game recorded try watching Harper regardless of where the ball is. You'll get a compltely different perspective of his contribution to the team.
Football has become extremely technical nowadays not least because the tackle has almost become extinct. It is all about each player doing a specific job within a specific team framework. Reading are the best in the league at this (see McLeish comments) and Harper is an integral part of that. Some of you should give Mr Coppell a bit more credit rather than see Harper as his pet.

Can't argue with a word of that.

[Huntley & Palmer]

All of this just stems from RFC fans being racist, so I wouldn't worry about the Harper bashing too much

[westongeezer]

I tend to agree stats are crap, by mere presence alone can have an effect on another players decision and in a passive way change the game of run of play, contact is not the be all and end all of each game, but it has to be said it tends to be more decife in it's roll , personally i thought we played the Blue Nose's of the park.

[londinium]

Before I start, I'll admit I only saw the game live.

However, I feel these 'stats' are both pointless and flawed. For starters, it's hugely unfair to compare the amount of times Harper and Doyle give the ball away, for whatever reason, given the respective positions they operate in on the pitch. Doyle is always looking to move forward, takes on defenders with the ball at his feet, and is far more likely to try and feed a team-mate into a goalscoring opportunity than Harper is.

For this reason it is pretty much a given fact that Doyle will suffer more tackles than Harper will. I'm willing to bet that Lionel Messi has been tackled more times this season than James Harper has, and has subsequently given the ball away on more occasions. Are you going to react by calling Harper a better player than Messi? I didn't think so.

Harper may complete more passes than the likes of Doyle and Cisse, but this is largely because there is very little ambition to his game recently. In Harper's eyes, why should he try a forward pass when he can shift it five yards to the left or right and let the receiver try the forward pass? Don't get me wrong, I am in no way a Harper-hater, but this season he is starting to cheese me off, and people trying to counter it with ridiculous 'stats' and pointless facts like 'best pass success rate at the club' aren't helping my opinion of him in a positive way.

If I came onto the pitch, was passed the ball by the goalkeeper, and proceeded to exchange 40 one-twos with him, I would have a fantastic pass success rate, but it wouldn't help my team in an attacking sense whatsoever. However, my 'stats' would be pretty impressive.

The idea behind this thread is quite terrible. You've wasted 90 minutes of your time with this one in my opinion.

Spot on.

Not really 'spot on'

I didnt waste 90 minutes of my time as my intention was to enjoy the match in peace rather than with my 4 kids jumping all over me on a Saturday lunchtime. I didnt go out with the sole intention of proving anyone right or wrong, it just struck me after about 5 minutes that Harps was playing better than Cisse (something I must admit I didnt think happened on Saturday either).

To say that Harper completes more passes than Cisse because he shows less ambition is rubbish too as of the balls that Harper did give away all of them were forward passes (maybe hence the reason he plays the short square ball to someone who can make more use of it). Cisse's forward passes = none.

The only reason I put Doyle in the thread was becuse it shocked me how many time he actually gave the ball away when the short square ball to retain possession was the right option.

My point being that surely it is better to back things up with facts rather than blindly state things that the Harper haters can jump onto and then people beleive them to be true because of a number of people saying it.

I can say 10000000 times that Barnsley are better than Wolves and get 10000 people to do the same it doesnt make it true, surely facts back up arguements.

Just wanted the general people on here to see facts rather than opinions.

BTW Harper directed the midfield better than Cisse or any other RFC player ever could.

[Royal With Cheese]

Interesting, if fairly meaningless stats.

I watched the game on the TV and specifically monitored Harper. I didn't play CM in any capacity in my playing days (left back - in the dressing room normally!) and agree that Harper did/does cover a lot of ground. Sometimes it's difficult to see exactly what he's up to and I think that's the nub of the issue. Players like Gerrard/Lampard/Fabrigas not only cover an immense area of field, marshall their team but also act as the hub through which the team can play. This means they naturally get more of the ball/make more passes and score more goals. Harps, clearly isn't that type of player.

This, BTW, does not mean I don't think Harps' contribution is rubbish because he's not Gerrard/Fabrigas/Lampard!