Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

[Wax Jacket]

MUST seem quite confident that a supporter led takeover can happen as soon as this summer, they believe they have the people and the money in place.

Meanwhile IMUSA seem a tad more realistic thinking a deal can be done with investors meaning a trust would hold 25% of the shares.

where would the money come from for all this? and what happens to the debt?

[Wycombe Royal]

Portsmouth earned £8million from selling defender Younes Kaboul and keeper Asmir Begovic and, once the players' wages have also been covered, the £4million remainder could prove an important lifeline.

Shurely that's not £4m for a months wages!

I read it as £2M, given that the PL kept £2M back for Watford and Chelsea. Even so, £2M

I heard that their monthly wage bill is £4m.

The £2m that was kept back was the £2m they held back from the last installment of TV money. THe other £7m of it was paid to various clubs for transfer fees owed. The additional £2m should have been given to Pompey but the PL decided to hold it back as they knew more money would be owed to clubs the following month.

[TheMaraudingDog]

I don’t know the ins and outs but you’d need to basically raise around £750m which is enough to clear all debt and then do a hostile takeover on the Glazers, which would need every United fans support and would need everyone to not renew their ST’s etc. Gonna have to offer the Glazer’s a ‘way out’ where by they sell up at no loss.

There’s meant to be a group of wealthy fans / business men who can raise the £750m. They would still be owed their cash back but it would be paid back with minimum interest. They’d make money on their outlay but the club would be in the hands of the fans and once the outlay has been returned the debt is gone.

Something like that anyway. It’s what we should have done 5 years ago but never properly got it together.

[Wax Jacket]

sort of what I thought. going to require some firm leadership as a group then, if somebody thinks the £50m he's invested in good faith is being spent poorly by someone else then it could get fractious.

[TFF]

I heard that their monthly wage bill is £4m.

The £2m that was kept back was the £2m they held back from the last installment of TV money. THe other £7m of it was paid to various clubs for transfer fees owed. The additional £2m should have been given to Pompey but the PL decided to hold it back as they knew more money would be owed to clubs the following month.

But this latest story starts "The Premier League has confirmed it will hold on to more than £2million from Portsmouth's January transfer revenue to cover debts." This is separate to the TV money that was withheld.

[TheMaraudingDog]

sort of what I thought. going to require some firm leadership as a group then, if somebody thinks the £50m he's invested in good faith is being spent poorly by someone else then it could get fractious.

I think the point is that they have just as much say as the rest of us in the running of the club but have agreements in place as to makesure they get their money back, with a little bit more. Its a bit like lending a m8 some cash in some ways.

The most difficult part will be getting 60000 ST holders to act as one. However, there are rumours abound that a certain Frenchman is willing to act as the supporters figurehead.

[TheMaraudingDog]

There's meant to be 50 people who can get £1b together. Fred Done is the first name to have gone public.

There's 100's of lads banned from OT for standing etc. They'll be straight back in

[prostak]

Portsmouth have changed owners again, for the third time since July 2009. Balram Chainrai, who had been in possession of two mortgages on the club, seems to have lost patience with their continued failure to repay the substantial loans he'd given them. They've also managed to pay January's salaries, albeit 5 days late.

On Manchester United, as Marauding Dog states, BBC NW Tonight reported that Fred Done has indeed gone public on his involvement with the Red Knights takeover bid - he has issued a statement denying any connection. They apparently held a meeting last night (Wednesday), however, and indeed currently claim to have raised over GBP1bn so far.
Meanwhile, the bonds issued a couple of weeks back by the incumbent MUFC board are already beginning to haemorrhage value. Seems as though the City consider this a reasonably risky investment with a chance of the bond issuer defaulting... Someone with greater financial knowledge is welcome to correct me there.

[PieEater]

Portsmouth have changed owners again, for the third time since July 2009. Balram Chainrai, who had been in possession of two mortgages on the club, seems to have lost patience with their continued failure to repay the substantial loans he'd given them. They've also managed to pay January's salaries, albeit 5 days late.
.

On the same site this story is an interesting read.

I like this quote

That means that if the club does fall into administration or liquidation, Chainrai will be able to take possession of the club itself, and Fratton Park, possibly leaving HMRC and the club's mounting list of other creditors unpaid

No wonder HMRC are getting tough if they're aren't any assets left.

[The whole year inn]

If Plymouth are the healthiest club financially in the Championship, why are are HM Revenue & Customs chasing things like this up?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/p/plymouth_argyle/8496760.stm

I dont buy that Equifax Bull

[Dirk Gently]

The supporters on the official Portsmouth coaches were given green and gold scarves yesterday and all held them up during the silence to commerorate Munich, which was impeccably observed.



http://www.imusa.org/newsarticle.php?id=247

[PieEater]

Is this on the financial crisis thread because you think the Pompey supporters will sell the scarves?

[rhroyal]

Daily Mail article on Pompey. In my view, it's been exaggerated and overhyped in typical Mail fashion:

Portsmouth FC: Born 1898, died 2010? Financial meltdown could spell end for proud Fratton Park club after 112 years

Portsmouth are just three days from becoming the first Premier League club to go out of business.
Not since Aldershot in 1992 have a club in the top four divisions of English football gone to the wall, but the only way for Portsmouth to avoid liquidation by the taxman on Wednesday may be administration.
That would mean a nine-point penalty and inevitable relegation, which could be merely the start of a downward spiral for a club who were founded 112 years ago and were celebrating an FA Cup victory at the home of football less than two years ago


The Fratton Park saga of financial meltdown, sordid revelations off the pitch and struggles on the field which continued with a 5-0 defeat at Manchester United yesterday, has caused huge embarrassment for the club and the multi-billion-pound business that is the Premier League.

Now the football authorities and Portsmouth's latest mysterious owners - the fourth faction to take charge in less than seven months - are in a race against time to prevent the ultimate humiliation: a club in the richest league in the world going bust.

If a High Court judge grants a winding-up order on Wednesday, Portsmouth would go out of business immediately. Finito. Kaput.

In those circumstances, the Premier League and English football, criticised for the massive debts and colourful owners at some of their clubs, would become a laughing stock.


Portsmouth's results to date would have to be expunged from the records, causing significant changes at the top and bottom of the table and creating huge discontent at both Manchester clubs, Arsenal, Bolton and West Ham.

Hated local rivals Southampton would progress unchallenged to the quarter-finals of the FA Cup because Saturday's derby would no longer take place. More importantly, thousands of supporters and the wider football world would lose a club founded in 1898.

Unless Portpin - the company is led by Hong Kong businessman Balram Chainrai and controls the club - put in more money or find realistic buyers, then the only way to avoid that fate may be to go into administration to gain temporary protection from a list of creditors owed at least £50million, from the taxman to local builders.

Chainrai's camp paint a more optimistic picture. They insist the third new regime since July can and will bring stability, if given breathing space by HM Revenue and Customs over the £7.5m debt, and they say there are two or three parties interested in buying out Chainrai once the listing ship is righted.

But Portsmouth's long-suffering fans have heard that before - and fear the worst.

The next battle for survival will be fought tomorrow in the High Court, where Portsmouth's legal team will argue again that the hearing of the winding-up petition should be postponed.

In desperation, they want to challenge the law that makes clubs pay VAT on transfer fees. If successful, they could erase a £7.5m tax debt and open the floodgates to similar claims from other clubs. But if they fail, as is probable, Wednesday's hearing, also at the High Court, will loom even larger.

Notts County, also facing a winding-up petition over tax debts of £700,000, last month persuaded a judge to give them 28 more days to pay by producing evidence of potential bidders.


There is talk inside the club of two or three different parties being interested in buying Portsmouth and of confidence that the taxman can be persuaded to give the latest owners the chance to prove they are more competent than the rift-ridden Ali al Faraj consortium and the laughable Sulaiman al Fahim.

But given Portsmouth's chequered history with the taxman, dating back at least to the days of Milan Mandaric's ownership, it would be reckless to pin their hopes on receiving similar treatment to Notts County, who have yet to produce new investors.

Administration might be the lesser of two evils, giving Portsmouth protection from extinction while they try to reach agreement with creditors and give them the chance of a fresh start.

Administration would not be without its dangers, though. Luton, Leeds, Rotherham and Scarborough were all given large points deductions because they came out of administration without reaching a Creditors' Voluntary Agreement, which was mainly due to the taxman refusing to accept their proposals of how many pence in the pound they were willing to pay.

But administration and a slip down the leagues would be better than extinction.

Much will depend on the attitude of Chainrai. At face value, it would make little sense for a businessman whose company is owed £17m to allow the club that borrowed the money to go into administration.


But it is claimed that Portpin have already recouped £14m - receiving £4m from the sales of Younes Kaboul and Asmir Begovic, and could write off a significant amount more in return for taking ownership of Fratton Park.

The original £17m loan was secured against the stadium. If he owned the ground, as well as the club and all its assets, administration might not be so painful for Chainrai. Whoever ends up buying the club out of administration would need somewhere to play and Chainrai could recoup his money and more by selling the ground back again.

A club wiped clean of the rest of its debt - they are already one of few Premier League sides without any long-term bank loans - would arguably be a more attractive proposition for potential buyers, particularly with the prospect of Premier League parachute payments to come.

Chainrai has more credibility than previous owners Falcondrone by virtue of having been seen in public, attending matches, unlike the elusive Ali al Faraj, whose money was said to be behind Falcondrone.

But precious little is known about him and Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore told worried fans at a meeting on Friday that they would make thorough checks that Chainrai was a fit and proper person to own a club and would intervene in running the club if necessary.

Portsmouth fans will have to hope it is not too little, too late.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... years.html

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Whilst I'd be surprised to see them pushed to bankruptcy, administration and relegation look inevitable. There is no knowing how far they could slide.

[Ian Royal]

Administration has to be a near certainty, and they already look nailed on for relegation. Presumably this means the points deduction is carried over and they start next season at -10 points.

And probably get another penalty for failing to get a CVA (?). That drops them to League One, and probably still leaves them in the financial plop.

Personally, whilst it's horrible for the fans, I honestly think it is for the best of English football that Pompey explode completely and cease to exist.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

Administration has to be a near certainty, and they already look nailed on for relegation. Presumably this means the points deduction is carried over and they start next season at -10 points.

And probably get another penalty for failing to get a CVA (?). That drops them to League One, and probably still leaves them in the financial plop.

Personally, whilst it's horrible for the fans, I honestly think it is for the best of English football that Pompey explode completely and cease to exist.

Yep and to make matters worse they still owe debt to almost all of their former owners. The ownership of the team, ground and the land around the ground that any new owner would need to re-develop the stadium is all apparently held by different individuals.

The only single event that could make them any more screwed than they are now is if Peter Ridsdale offers to step in as chairman if other Peter gets sent down

[Once were Biscuitmen]

I don’t know the ins and outs but you’d need to basically raise around £750m which is enough to clear all debt and then do a hostile takeover on the Glazers, which would need every United fans support and would need everyone to not renew their ST’s etc. Gonna have to offer the Glazer’s a ‘way out’ where by they sell up at no loss.

There’s meant to be a group of wealthy fans / business men who can raise the £750m. They would still be owed their cash back but it would be paid back with minimum interest. They’d make money on their outlay but the club would be in the hands of the fans and once the outlay has been returned the debt is gone.

Something like that anyway. It’s what we should have done 5 years ago but never properly got it together.

Yes but the last boycott never really got off the ground did it? The problem is there is a reserve army of fan club mongs just itching to have their away day at Old Trafford. Coordinating that many people is also never going to happen even with the bad poet.

For it to have any chance they would have to rely on a much smaller group of super-wealthy individuals and for Utd to go through a period of sustained commercial failure.

[Ian Royal]

Administration has to be a near certainty, and they already look nailed on for relegation. Presumably this means the points deduction is carried over and they start next season at -10 points.

And probably get another penalty for failing to get a CVA (?). That drops them to League One, and probably still leaves them in the financial plop.

Personally, whilst it's horrible for the fans, I honestly think it is for the best of English football that Pompey explode completely and cease to exist.

Yep and to make matters worse they still owe debt to almost all of their former owners. The ownership of the team, ground and the land around the ground that any new owner would need to re-develop the stadium is all apparently held by different individuals.

The only single event that could make them any more screwed than they are now is if Peter Ridsdale offers to step in as chairman if other Peter gets sent down

Ken Bates?

[Platypuss]

Not since Aldershot in 1992 have a club in the top four divisions of English football gone to the wall, but the only way for Portsmouth to avoid liquidation by the taxman on Wednesday may be administration.

Maidstone United?

Given that level of reporting, is it even worth reading the rest?

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Administration has to be a near certainty, and they already look nailed on for relegation. Presumably this means the points deduction is carried over and they start next season at -10 points.

Does anyone know if this is def the case? being that they would be moving from the Prem to the league?

[Dirk Gently]

Administration has to be a near certainty, and they already look nailed on for relegation. Presumably this means the points deduction is carried over and they start next season at -10 points.

Does anyone know if this is def the case? being that they would be moving from the Prem to the league?

I think it's all about the date a club goes into Administration. The FL's rules are that if you go into administration before the transfer deadline (4th Tuesday in March) then you get the points deduction in that season -if after that date then it's in the next season. That's the FL's rules, not sure if the PL have adopted the same dates.

What IR is missing is that there is a large debt here to HMRC, who will almost certainly not be paid off in full - and they have a policy of opposing any suggested football CVA as they oppose the football creditors rule.

So as well as -10 points sooner rather than later, Portsmouth are likely to cop an extra -15 points when they try to come out of Administration. If they can, that is - their debts are so immense that it may be that they're not worth trying to save.