Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

[Dirk Gently]

With regard to Pompey, no-one seems to have posted this point, so I will.

......

Still feel sympathy for them??

I don't.

Let them go under and let their fate be a lesson to all the other clubs out there who want to behave in the same fashion.

Fair point, but my anger is directed more at the authorities who allow this to go on unchecked rather than the club themselves - the world is full of rogues and crooks, and it's unfortunate for Pompey fans that their club was taken over by one. They certainly didn't choose who the owner was - their worst crime was to listen to all the promises and lap them up unquestioningly (not a mistake that many will make again thanks to them, Notts County and many other clubs). At the same time many of our fans were calling for a "rich Arab" ....

Proper regulation in the game - together with on-going financial monitoring - would simply stop things like this happening. But usually, by the time it comes out that a club is in trouble it's far, far, too late to do anything about it - so the damage that they've done to themselves and other clubs - goes unchecked. Yes, they may get a points deduction, but that usually punishes new owners who are trying to repair the damage, not those who caused the damage in the first place.

The football industry now is regulated along the same lines as the banking industry 5 years ago ..... and we're starting to see the start of the same sort of crash.

So I won't take any pleasure in seeing Pompey go under, but there are two things that I currently take great pleasure in ....

- for the first time that I can remember, those in charge of the PL - who are usually the most media-savvy, spin-aware manipulators going, with vast resources and massive influence - literally do not know what is going to happen over the next few days. They are very, very, scared and it's wonderful to watch.

- even better, the trial of Redknapp, Mandarić and Storrie on two counts of cheating the public revenue is due to be heard in April (I think...it's definitely before the season ends). If they go down - and there's a good chance they will - I'll be absolutely over the moon.

[Hoop Blah]

100% agreement from here Dirk.

I hate Pompey more than most clubs to be honest, and their fans are the main reason, but I still wouldn't want to see a club with a lot of history and is a massive part of the city fold just because 5 or 10 indiviuals cocked it up.

Like you say, it's about time the regulations were there to protect the fans (the true owners of a club) from the oddballs that can somehow find themselves in charge of other peoples dreams.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

With regard to Pompey, no-one seems to have posted this point, so I will.

To all those posters on here who are sad that pompey may go bust for their financial mismanagement, it is worth pointing this out to you all - maybe you then might understand why Ideal and others are keen for Pompey to get their just desserts....

All season, ever Reading fan has been saying the same thing - on here, in text messages and phone calls to BBCRB after games etc etc "WE NEED A PROVEN GOALSCORING STRIKER"

Well, if you remember back to August, we had one lined up; a proven championship quality striker for whom a bid of £2M was made and accepted. Then, at the last minute, we got gazzumped by a premiership club for the said striker, with no doubt a bigger signing on fee and higher wages playing a part in his decision.

As a result, we missed out on Tommy Smith.

He may well have been that 15 - 20 goal a season striker which we have lacked all season, and could have made the difference between us possibly pushing for a play-off spot as opposed to being down in a relegation dog-fight.

We now know that Pompey didn't have the cash to pay for the player, and are so in debt that they can't afford to pay their staff on time (no bets on whether the players and staff will get February's pay on time!!!), but, because they were trading illegally, Portsmouth Football Club have stuffed up our 2009/10 season, and if we get relegated, could stuff up RFC entirely.

Still feel sympathy for them??

I don't.

Let them go under and let their fate be a lesson to all the other clubs out there who want to behave in the same fashion.

So what happens to the people who have casued this?

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

mental

With regard to Pompey, no-one seems to have posted this point, so I will.

To all those posters on here who are sad that pompey may go bust for their financial mismanagement, it is worth pointing this out to you all - maybe you then might understand why Ideal and others are keen for Pompey to get their just desserts....

All season, ever Reading fan has been saying the same thing - on here, in text messages and phone calls to BBCRB after games etc etc "WE NEED A PROVEN GOALSCORING STRIKER"

Well, if you remember back to August, we had one lined up; a proven championship quality striker for whom a bid of £2M was made and accepted. Then, at the last minute, we got gazzumped by a premiership club for the said striker, with no doubt a bigger signing on fee and higher wages playing a part in his decision.

As a result, we missed out on Tommy Smith.

He may well have been that 15 - 20 goal a season striker which we have lacked all season, and could have made the difference between us possibly pushing for a play-off spot as opposed to being down in a relegation dog-fight.

We now know that Pompey didn't have the cash to pay for the player, and are so in debt that they can't afford to pay their staff on time (no bets on whether the players and staff will get February's pay on time!!!), but, because they were trading illegally, Portsmouth Football Club have stuffed up our 2009/10 season, and if we get relegated, could stuff up RFC entirely.

Still feel sympathy for them??

I don't.

Let them go under and let their fate be a lesson to all the other clubs out there who want to behave in the same fashion.

So what happens to the people who have casued this?

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Al Fahim (sp) has resigned from the board of PFC and requested his remaining 10% shareholding be given to the supporters trust.

Saddle the fans with 10% of the debts? Nice.

That was sort of my first thought. I get the impression if you shook hands with any of the pompey board, you had best check your fingers are still there.

sorry but that is mental

[Uke]

With regard to Pompey, no-one seems to have posted this point, so I will.

To all those posters on here who are sad that pompey may go bust for their financial mismanagement, it is worth pointing this out to you all - maybe you then might understand why Ideal and others are keen for Pompey to get their just desserts....

All season, ever Reading fan has been saying the same thing - on here, in text messages and phone calls to BBCRB after games etc etc "WE NEED A PROVEN GOALSCORING STRIKER"

Well, if you remember back to August, we had one lined up; a proven championship quality striker for whom a bid of £2M was made and accepted. Then, at the last minute, we got gazzumped by a premiership club for the said striker, with no doubt a bigger signing on fee and higher wages playing a part in his decision.

As a result, we missed out on Tommy Smith.

He may well have been that 15 - 20 goal a season striker which we have lacked all season, and could have made the difference between us possibly pushing for a play-off spot as opposed to being down in a relegation dog-fight.

We now know that Pompey didn't have the cash to pay for the player, and are so in debt that they can't afford to pay their staff on time (no bets on whether the players and staff will get February's pay on time!!!), but, because they were trading illegally, Portsmouth Football Club have stuffed up our 2009/10 season, and if we get relegated, could stuff up RFC entirely.

Still feel sympathy for them??

I don't.

Let them go under and let their fate be a lesson to all the other clubs out there who want to behave in the same fashion.

So what happens to the people who have casued this?

- even better, the trial of Redknapp, Mandarić and Storrie on two counts of cheating the public revenue is due to be heard in April (I think...it's definitely before the season ends). If they go down - and there's a good chance they will - I'll be absolutely over the moon.

[Mr Angry]

With regard to Pompey, no-one seems to have posted this point, so I will.

To all those posters on here who are sad that pompey may go bust for their financial mismanagement, it is worth pointing this out to you all - maybe you then might understand why Ideal and others are keen for Pompey to get their just desserts....

All season, ever Reading fan has been saying the same thing - on here, in text messages and phone calls to BBCRB after games etc etc "WE NEED A PROVEN GOALSCORING STRIKER"

Well, if you remember back to August, we had one lined up; a proven championship quality striker for whom a bid of £2M was made and accepted. Then, at the last minute, we got gazzumped by a premiership club for the said striker, with no doubt a bigger signing on fee and higher wages playing a part in his decision.

As a result, we missed out on Tommy Smith.

He may well have been that 15 - 20 goal a season striker which we have lacked all season, and could have made the difference between us possibly pushing for a play-off spot as opposed to being down in a relegation dog-fight.

We now know that Pompey didn't have the cash to pay for the player, and are so in debt that they can't afford to pay their staff on time (no bets on whether the players and staff will get February's pay on time!!!), but, because they were trading illegally, Portsmouth Football Club have stuffed up our 2009/10 season, and if we get relegated, could stuff up RFC entirely.

Still feel sympathy for them??

I don't.

Let them go under and let their fate be a lesson to all the other clubs out there who want to behave in the same fashion.

So what happens to the people who have casued this?

Personally, what I would like to see happen to those people who caused this (specifically Mandaric, Gydamak, Al Farim and Al Mirage, plus Storrie, the board of PFC throughout this period and that sleazy Israeli Accountant) is that they are barred from having anything to do with football ever again, and, if at all possible, those named individuals being done for fraud.

The PL and the FA MUST put proper rules and regulations into place about ownership responsibilities and clear and unambiguous penalties for those who transgress; not only is it unfair for the fans of all clubs (as I mentioned, we can say that we have been directly affected by this fiasco and I'm sure other clubs can as well - not least Watford), and also for the integrity of the game, but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there wasn't a very real danger of football clubs being used as a front for money laundering, or worse. The amounts of money sloshing around in the PL now means that it is going to be targetted by sleazy crooks and chancers; just cos they wear suits and are happy to hold up a nearly purchased club scarf does not make them any less unpleasant than any other fraudsters.

[Smoking Kills Dancing Doe]

Certainly agree with what you say, espicially about Prem League regulations.

Gaydamak has made plenty of money out of out of the sale, Storrie has made a great living out of football and Redknapp of course had nothing to do with this and it's not his fault at all, he is blameless. Well apparently.

Just seems the only people who are punished are the fans.

The fact Ideal finds this amusing sums it all up.......

[Mr Angry]

I don't find this situation amusing; I find it desperately sad for Football. BUT I feel that this state of affairs in the game has to stop, and the first step to that is for a big club, a club with history and fans and which means a lot to the local community to go to the wall, as desperately sad as it will be to those involved in that club. Once that happens, everyone else will realise what we have got ourselves into and then the will - hopefully - to change will begin.

And lets be honest about something; we as fans bear some responsibility here.

Its us who are forever pressurising the management to spend money on players, or else denouncing chairmen for not putting their hand into their pocket........... read back over some of the posts made on HNA? over the last 3 seasons for example.

You add pressure/expectation from the fans, to ego in the boardroom, and greed with the players and their agents and what you get are all the ingredients for a disaster; all that was neccesary was the match to light the whole thing, and that was provided by Sky's money.

Football is, I'm afraid, as corrupt as the Houses of Parliament, and needs as much of a clean up.

[TFF]

I think even MPs would be embarrassed by what goes on in football.

This isn't a funny situation and I'll take no pleasure in seeing the fans' distress (obv 'part from the pcunt with the bell) but I'm desperately hoping for HMRC to win this one. I don't want to see them use administration to cheat people out of money. I want them to be liquidated and I want "football" to learn the lesson.

Get debt under control. Stop paying players and agents such ridiculous sums and give us our game back.

[rabidbee]

"Football" won't learn the lesson, though. There will always be pressure to succeed, and as soon as one clubs relents to the pressure and ups the ante, its competitors will feel forced to respond, and we'll be back into the old arms race again.

[Dirk Gently]

.....

And lets be honest about something; we as fans bear some responsibility here.

Its us who are forever pressurising the management to spend money on players, or else denouncing chairmen for not putting their hand into their pocket........... read back over some of the posts made on HNA? over the last 3 seasons for example.

You add pressure/expectation from the fans, to ego in the boardroom, and greed with the players and their agents and what you get are all the ingredients for a disaster; all that was neccesary was the match to light the whole thing, and that was provided by Sky's money.

Football is, I'm afraid, as corrupt as the Houses of Parliament, and needs as much of a clean up.

Most definitely. And here's an example that sums up a lot of it.

Stockport County was run by their Trust last season - they stepped in to save it when no-one else would touch it with a bargepole - and they did Ok in the leagueu for a while. As it was Trust, they were run sustainably on a balanced budget.

Their manager went to teh board and said "I want to buy this player...." and the board said "No, sorry, we just can't afford it."

So the manager immediately runs to the local paper saying "We could be succesful but they are too tight to put the money in, they're holding us back. etc etc" - and all the fans are turned against those trying to keep the club running.

[papereyes]

"Football" won't learn the lesson, though. There will always be pressure to succeed, and as soon as one clubs relents to the pressure and ups the ante, it's competitors will feel forced to respond, and we'll be back into the old arms race again.

I agree with that.
In the Premiership, its driven by the money in the CL and the odd rich investor. Clubs that can't afford to spend money keeping up with teams that have many many millions more.

IT ENDS IN TEARS

[rabidbee]

Mr A et al, you only have to look at Team Board to see how unrealistic some are. One prat was talking about how he would buy the club and push us towards Premiership glory if he won £60m on the lottery. I mean, seriously? You'd run out of money within the first season.

[T.R.O.L.I.]

BUT I feel that this state of affairs in the game has to stop, and the first step to that is for a big club, a club with history and fans and which means a lot to the local community to go to the wall, as desperately sad as it will be to those involved in that club.

100% agree, Mr A.

This is something that I have found myself discussing with Dirk et al en route to away games and it's amazing how close some clubs have been to going belly up in the past - IIRC, West Ham would have been in serious shit had they not won the 2005 Championship playoff final and Man City were days away from financial ruin before the Abu Dhabi lot took over from Shinwatra.

Those clubs were saved (one by a result, the other by new business) however I believe neither were as financially screwed as Portsmouth currently are - and if it takes Portsmouth to go belly up to make the PL actually a) take a long hard look at how the clubs in their "perfect model" are actually being run and b) put in place some proper regulations regarding ownership (rather than the Mickey Mouse fit and proper person test that is currently in place) then so be it.

[Royal With Cheese]

Mr A et al, you only have to look at Team Board to see how unrealistic some are. One prat was talking about how he would buy the club and push us towards Premiership glory if he won £60m on the lottery. I mean, seriously? You'd run out of money within the first season.

To be honest rabid you'd prolly run out of money by Christmas.

[Dirk Gently]

Yes - The FA's League's Committee will receommend that a club enter a leagu at the "most appropriate level" for them.

This doesn't just take into account playing standard - it also takes into account likely crowd size, too. So a club which will regularly attract crowds of several thousand which would cause safety issues at step 7 might be asked to enter at a higher level.

I know, I was surprised too, especially as AFCW did start in Combined Counties Southern (first match at Sandhurst Town in fact!) - but I heardit in a discussion that said an AFC Portsmouth would probably start in Conf National or Conf South.

I'm not sure that would be possible. I'm sure rules are in place regarding what happens if less clubs come down than expected, and typically each league relegates one less. Portmsouth couldn't just drop into the pyramid where they feel like it. They'd probably have to start at the Southern League South-West Division, which is the highest league clubs can feed into.

I was amazed at it too, but I was told be people who certainly know and have been discussing this point. It's against natural justice, though, and anone who'd support AFC Pompey wouldn't be morally entitled to complain at MK Dons starting in Tier 3.

[Dirk Gently]

"Football" won't learn the lesson, though. There will always be pressure to succeed, and as soon as one clubs relents to the pressure and ups the ante, it's competitors will feel forced to respond, and we'll be back into the old arms race again.

I agree with that.
In the Premiership, its driven by the money in the CL and the odd rich investor. Clubs that can't afford to spend money keeping up with teams that have many many millions more.

IT ENDS IN TEARS

Except in other countries and other sports where it's been applied they have learnt the lesson. In Germay clubs have been relegated for not sticking to the financial rules, dtto in Australian Rugby League. When teh penalties are sufficinetly hardsh (in competitive terms) and there is effective forensic accounting to ensure that clubs will get caught then it does work.

And I bet that owners would love it too - to have an excuse to get off the unwwinnable conveyer belt of more money for players' and their wages . They all want to pay less rather than subsidise their club - but none can afford to be the first one to do it.

[Dirk Gently]

Here's one suggestion for what is needed - this is from a Supporters Direct discussion paper.

It could be a requirement that every football company should hold this License every summer in order to be allowed to compete the following season. Given the FA's penchant for a ‘tick box' approach, the application for the Licence could be very simple and might look something like this:

•Who actually owns the company, and the ultimate parent company? (Well, OK, perhaps a bit tricky for, say, Leeds or Portsmouth)
•Has your largest shareholder ever been to see the club play?
•Can your largest shareholder locate your club within 50 miles on a blank map?
•Are you up to date with all your tax payments?
•Have you paid all your football creditors?
•Can you produce a written guarantee that your 'soft' debts will not be called in within the next five years?
•Is your wages-to-revenues ratio less than 60%?
•Do you have a fans' representative on your board?
•Do you have a Plan B for when it all goes pear-shaped on the pitch? (Please attach)

To hold the Licence, you must be able to answer the first question, and answer ‘Yes' to all the others.

This sort of licence would need to be renewed each year, and without it the club couldn't compete in any competitions.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

They introduced something like this in Italy a few years back.

it ended up with half of Serie C being kicked out pre season, but they didnt have the nerve to do anything much aboue Serie B.