England vs USA sponsored by US Nobbers [OFFICAL THREAD]

[Ian Royal]

I rarely comment on the General Football board, and don't believe I have bothered to partake of discussion on the WC Qualifying games. I can assure you, however, that I have criticised this 2-hour notice thing to other people.

Why do you always take everything so personally RL?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

England will progress from the easiest group and our press will be calling us winners when we score a few against the other two but I think we are what we are-a quarter-final team(ranked 8th in the world) that might make it to the semis whereas Argentina,Brazil,Spain and Holland all have the potential to win the cup..

The press has actually been incredibly muted about England being likely winners for a very long time, but for some reason everyone seems convinced the press always tip England to win. Go back 20 years and you could easily find such predictions, but now they are rare. Likewise, the press seem obsessed with the idea that England fans all think England are likely to win, and it's rare to find anyone who thinks that way.


What I do find depressing about international tournaments is how it keeps getting rammed home that we aren't an elite level nation. For a country of 50 million, where football is by far the most popular sport, we ought to be able to produce far more talent than we do. Of course we are hampered by our inherent belief that the English way of doing things is best, despite all the evidence to the contrary, which is why we field teams barely able to trap a ball, and convince ourselves that pace is some kind of magic bullet to winning games.


Then again, I'm always at a loss to explain why other nations' players seem able to raise their game for the world cup, yet ours often leave you scratching you head in wonder how they play in the premier league. I think Kebe and McAnuff would have been more effective than Shaun Wright-Phillips and Lennon.

[Maguire]

I don't think England were as bad as everyone is saying to be honest. Always looked the team most likely, controlled things, and would have won if it wasn't for the howler (I appreciate this is part of the overall quality of your side)

Heskey was actually one of our best players yet predictably fluffed his lines when through one on one. I also worry about the central defence.

US fought well but didn't have an awful lot to offer. Alg v Slo is appalling and I don't see anything to fear from them.

[Millsy]

What I do find depressing about international tournaments is how it keeps getting rammed home that we aren't an elite level nation. For a country of 50 million, where football is by far the most popular sport, we ought to be able to produce far more talent than we do.

The sad fact I think is that football and patriotism are dirty words in this country, especially when the two mix. Add to that the importance we pay to other sports and its little wonder we do so poorly.

Whilst it might be the most popular sport in England, I wouldn't say "by far" and it's nowhere near as popular as it is in almost every other country except perhaps the US. Take Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain Brazil etc... in all these countries football is the main sport "by far". Nothing else even comes close. Here we are heavily into rugby and cricket too and in some places, like some places up north you'd be hard pressed to find a football fan anywhere as most will be into rugby.

I used to be shocked at how hard it was to find England football fans but am no longer surprised that it seems that most people I ask don't care about football or for England in my work and amongst my friends. Many English people even want England to lose because of their hatred for football or their embarrassment for patriotism.

This is not least down to the awful wife-cheating role models we have and our idiotic behaviour abroad as fans.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

What I do find depressing about international tournaments is how it keeps getting rammed home that we aren't an elite level nation. For a country of 50 million, where football is by far the most popular sport, we ought to be able to produce far more talent than we do.

The sad fact I think is that football and patriotism are dirty words in this country, especially when the two mix. Add to that the importance we pay to other sports and its little wonder we do so poorly.

Whilst it might be the most popular sport in England, I wouldn't say "by far" and it's nowhere near as popular as it is in almost every other country except perhaps the US. Take Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain Brazil etc... in all these countries football is the main sport "by far". Nothing else even comes close. Here we are heavily into rugby and cricket too and in some places, like some places up north you'd be hard pressed to find a football fan anywhere as most will be into rugby.

I used to be shocked at how hard it was to find England football fans but am no longer surprised that it seems that most people I ask don't care about football or for England in my work and amongst my friends. Many English people even want England to lose because of their hatred for football or their embarrassment for patriotism.

This is not least down to the awful wife-cheating role models we have and our idiotic behaviour abroad as fans.

The Netherlands has a population of 15 million, yet consistently puts out better teams than us. Their players certainly look more talented. While there may be small pockets of rugby fans in this country, it's not a significant number. A very most I'd say one in five put rugby first. And the number who exclusively play cricket must be so small as to be negligible. That would put us at a country of 40 million football fans - the same as Argentina. We are not anywhere near producing the quality Argentina produces.

Things might might change. There does appear to be more focus in academies in trying to encourage technique, and the England U18 team that won the UEFA Championships a few weeks ago did look more comfortable on the ball than the senior pros, but we still seem to have a belief that coaching qualifications and training are "nonsense". It's like when Gareth Southgate was told he had to train in coaching to be a manager - many of his mates from his playing days came out saying that playing for England and in the premier league was all the training you'd ever need to be a coach.

[Stranded]

The difference I think 2WW was alluding too was that the emphasis is put on a lot of team sports in this country and as such we are decent at most of them, football, rugby, cricket...but as we don't focus completely on one it does have a knock on effect on the talent pool (as in a lot of cases the best kids growing up were good at all 3).. add to that a fairly substandard level of coaching at youth level and you have the problem why we will only ever be decent at best.

[papereyes]

There was, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, a story about France and Germany having 10 times as many football coaches per x,000 population compared with the UK.

Even at the lowest level, when you get Joe Cubleader or Alfred PE Teacher, that's got to make a difference.

I also think, in general, people work on the assumption one is simply good at football and it cannot be taught. This may be a rather silly assumption.

[Ian Royal]

Agreed on that last point. I was awful as a child, and I'm still awful in an actual match context, but I'm not bad in a friendly kick about and I got a lot better in my late teens / early twenties because I actually played. If I'd had good quality training from an early age and was fit, I'd be ok. Not saying I could necessarily play to any decent level.

But if you could improve someone by maybe a factor of 5 or 10 of my quality, then I'm pretty sure you could make a lot of more naturally talented people half as good again.

[Ark Royal]

Team for Algeria (4-5-1):

Hart
Johnson
Dawson (if King is unfit)
Terry
A. Cole
Barry
Lennon
Lampard
J. Cole
Gerrard
Rooney

[Ian Royal]

Team for Algeria (4-5-1):

Hart
Johnson
Dawson (if King is unfit)
Terry
A. Cole
Barry
Lennon
Lampard
J. Cole
Gerrard
Rooney

Rather have James, and I'd be inclined to stay 4-4-2 with Crouch to work on his scoring record with more poor teams. Whilst focusing on your formation (avec James) for the knockout stages.

[Row Z Royal]

Team for Algeria (4-5-1):

Hart
Johnson
Dawson (if King is unfit)
Terry
A. Cole
Barry
Lennon
Lampard
J. Cole
Gerrard
Rooney

I'd be happy for Green to keep his place, but no complaints at all about that. That team definitely plays to our strengths.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

There was, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, a story about France and Germany having 10 times as many football coaches per x,000 population compared with the UK.

I also think, in general, people work on the assumption one is simply good at football and it cannot be taught. This may be a rather silly assumption.

I think more damaging is the belief that somehow we have nothing to learn from foreign football. In many ways 1966, coupled with the club successes in Europe in the late 70s/early 80s were about the worst things that happened to football in England, as it allowed a whole generation to be indoctrinated into thinking that English football, and the English way of doing things, really is the best.


It's commonly said that our press is too harsh in its criticism, but the problem really is that it seeks to scapegoat individuals rather than looking at the fundamental problem of the English team failing to win because it isn't good enough.

[Ian Royal]

Part of the problem early on is that good players are encouraged to win games solo and ignore teamplay, certainly with the weaker players.

When they're no longer a cut above the players they are against (attackers usually favoured over defenders at young ages) they don't know how to work as a team. Short simple passes are derided as sideways and movement simply isn't good enough.

[Millsy]

The difference I think 2WW was alluding too was that the emphasis is put on a lot of team sports in this country and as such we are decent at most of them, football, rugby, cricket...but as we don't focus completely on one it does have a knock on effect on the talent pool (as in a lot of cases the best kids growing up were good at all 3).. add to that a fairly substandard level of coaching at youth level and you have the problem why we will only ever be decent at best.

Yep stranded.

And Rev, 1 in 5 being into rugby is a not insignificant. We're losing strong fit players to this awful classist, size-exclusivist, boring joke of a brutish technique-less game. (haha what a sentence). You take 1 in 5 at random out of Germany's squad and see what effect that has for example.

Of course as you say though it can't fully explain it. It's just a factor amongst many.

I know for a fact that in many countries on the continent players are technically superior becase of the way they play form a very young age i.e. tiny enclosed yards with tiny chalk goals drawn on walls where ball skills and preise shooting are paramount. Here we send our kids out into big pitches aiming at full sized goals - great for educating about the 11-a-side game but doing no favours for ball skills. Just another possible factor.

[Royal Lady]

I rarely comment on the General Football board, and don't believe I have bothered to partake of discussion on the WC Qualifying games. I can assure you, however, that I have criticised this 2-hour notice thing to other people.

Why do you always take everything so personally RL?

Cos I'm the only one on here who has criticised the 2 hour before games team announcement aren't I? Therefore, if you question it, I'll assume you are talking to me.

[LUX]

And Rev, 1 in 5 being into rugby is a not insignificant. We're losing strong fit players to this awful classist, size-exclusivist, boring joke of a brutish technique-less game. (haha what a sentence). You take 1 in 5 at random out of Germany's squad and see what effect that has for example.

1.Germans play (and excel) at many more sports than football. Check out their medal hauls at any winter or summer olympics. Handball is a national sport, very popular, and they are one of the best in the world. They are far better than us at hockey and tennis.

2. I like rugby.

[Ian Royal]

I rarely comment on the General Football board, and don't believe I have bothered to partake of discussion on the WC Qualifying games. I can assure you, however, that I have criticised this 2-hour notice thing to other people.

Why do you always take everything so personally RL?

Cos I'm the only one on here who has criticised the 2 hour before games team announcement aren't I? Therefore, if you question it, I'll assume you are talking to me.

That's not exactly what I meant.

[URZZ]

I'm gonna go 1-1 or 2-1 either way.

Tight game.

I'll take that

Could have been 2-1.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

The difference I think 2WW was alluding too was that the emphasis is put on a lot of team sports in this country and as such we are decent at most of them, football, rugby, cricket...but as we don't focus completely on one it does have a knock on effect on the talent pool (as in a lot of cases the best kids growing up were good at all 3).. add to that a fairly substandard level of coaching at youth level and you have the problem why we will only ever be decent at best.

Yep stranded.

And Rev, 1 in 5 being into rugby is a not insignificant. We're losing strong fit players to this awful classist, size-exclusivist, boring joke of a brutish technique-less game. (haha what a sentence). You take 1 in 5 at random out of Germany's squad and see what effect that has for example.

as said already, other countries do play other sports too. Maybe an additional problem with have these days is just that kids are so damn fat in the UK these days. I reckon we lose far more potential players to obesity than any competing sport.

I know for a fact that in many countries on the continent players are technically superior becase of the way they play form a very young age i.e. tiny enclosed yards with tiny chalk goals drawn on walls where ball skills and preise shooting are paramount. Here we send our kids out into big pitches aiming at full sized goals - great for educating about the 11-a-side game but doing no favours for ball skills. Just another possible factor.

It would be interesting to compare teams of 8 years olds from England with other countries, and see if there's much difference in the style of play at that age.

It is something of a myth though that the likes of Argentina and Brazil pluck kids from the slums or the beaches as almost ready-made stars. They've all gone through academy training from a young age. The way we play, on the large fields, playing dozens of tournaments every year, doesn't help in any way though.

[Royal Rother]

That would put us at a country of 40 million football fans - the same as Argentina.

Interesting post but that is way way off.