Mcd says we haven't got any cash....

[PieEater]

And now Cardiff have Belllamy using money they don't have. It's a disgrace and I won't be parting with a penny more to support such a corrupt and unjust system (and yes, I know it's my club that feels that most, but there is a principal at stake here).

Why does everyone think this is the case?

They have been taken over by a very rich Malaysian who is bankrolling them. He paid all the tax bills and presumably will be stumping up for Bellamys wages too. If he hadn't appeared they would be in administration.

[CMRoyal]

And now Cardiff have Belllamy using money they don't have. It's a disgrace and I won't be parting with a penny more to support such a corrupt and unjust system (and yes, I know it's my club that feels that most, but there is a principal at stake here).

Why does everyone think this is the case?

They have been taken over by a very rich Malaysian who is bankrolling them. He paid all the tax bills and presumably will be stumping up for Bellamys wages too. If he hadn't appeared they would be in administration.

I think people will be a lot happier if/when they get their priorities right and pay Motherwell the money they owe them (with interest, presumably).

[RoyalBlue]

Well Portsmouth have set the standard now. All clubs know that they can spend millions - have a great deal of success and then enter a CVA and wipe their debts and get off Scot free. Why should Cardiff not take the risk. They did last year and are again this year. Why pay the tax man when you can pay for Craig Bellamy on loan instead. I think they clearly have the right business model going forwards as no club seems to be expected to pay a penalty for complete financial mismanagement.

I am being cynical and have historically agreed with Sir John's policy of sustainable finances (to a major extent anyway) but it does make you wonder why it is worth it. In my view heavily indebted clubs should not be allowed to bring in any new players at all and if necessary should be expected to use youth players only. If they get relegated then so be it. It is the only way to stop clubs from being profligate.

This. I actually really like the way SJM TRIES to run the club, there's definitely a nobility in not breaking the banks, relying on your academy, and trying to be a good, honest, well-run football club. And I think 10 years ago it would have worked perfectly.


I hate the way football is at the moment. I think it's beyond disgusting that a club is allowed to spend £80 million on the services of one human being, when you think of what that amount of money could do. It's disgusting, but there will come a time where we will have to accept that it's not changing. Certainly not now. Sir John will have to understand that he can't stay on his high horse forever. I can promise you now that not every chairman in the football league is making a profit, not by a long shot, but sadly, their position in the league table would say otherwise.

Think of the amount of businesses this guy is running. He must have more money than he knows what to do with. It's not that I don't believe we've lost 6 million in the last few years, I believe it 100%, but that's modern day football I'm afraid. More and more money is being spent... is it right? Not a chance. Do you have to do it? If you want to be a successful club, yes.

It kind of makes me wonder why anyone bothers anymore. It was summed up for me by a Fulham fan I spoke to once.. he said "We've been in relegation battles for 5 or 6 years running now. It kind of makes you wonder what the point is. You know at the start of the season one of four teams will win the league.. we're playing in a league I know we have no chance of winning."

I just find that a bit depressing. We all want money spent at this club, myself included, but I have to ask myself where it would actually get us eventually. Either way, it's getting ridiculous.

Spot on. But I wonder whether Madejski will ever realise that he alone is not big or powerful enough to buck the 'system' that is modern day English professional football. The rules of the game have been very clearly set and if you really want to succeed then you have no option but to play by them. If you don't like the way the game is run then your only realistic option is to withdraw. Madejski's approach will only bring increasing levels of disillusionment and disappointment to both him and the supporters of RFC.

And now Cardiff have Belllamy using money they don't have. It's a disgrace and I won't be parting with a penny more to support such a corrupt and unjust system (and yes, I know it's my club that feels that most, but there is a principal at stake here).

Why does everyone think this is the case?

They have been taken over by a very rich Malaysian who is bankrolling them. He paid all the tax bills and presumably will be stumping up for Bellamys wages too. If he hadn't appeared they would be in administration.

I wonder what made their new owner decide that Cardiff were a better buy than Reading - afterall, we are meant to be an extremely well run club with the potential to become another Arsenal and with a Chairman who says he wants to sell.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

Spot on. But I wonder whether Madejski will ever realise that he alone is not big or powerful enough to buck the 'system' that is modern day English professional football. The rules of the game have been very clearly set and if you really want to succeed then you have no option but to play by them. If you don't like the way the game is run then your only realistic option is to withdraw. Madejski's approach will only bring increasing levels of disillusionment and disappointment to both him and the supporters of RFC.

I think you have missed the point. That's like saying, "well we all know we are in a house price bubble but if you want to buy a house you will have to pay more."

Sometimes the only way to win is not to play the game (best film ever).

[Hoop Blah]

Ivar Ingimarsson is out of tonight's friendly and possibly out for a further two weeks...good going Madejski...also, why on earth was he offered a new contract?

I think you should be looking towards Hammond rather than Madejski when directing your ire at the club for re-signing players who are past their best.....

I don't for a minute think that Hammond would've been dishing out new contracts to players without McDermotts say so.

It's McDermotts budget and I'm sure he's in total control of how it's spent. Hammond just does the mechanics of seeing through the managers wishes.

[CMRoyal]

Spot on. But I wonder whether Madejski will ever realise that he alone is not big or powerful enough to buck the 'system' that is modern day English professional football. The rules of the game have been very clearly set and if you really want to succeed then you have no option but to play by them. If you don't like the way the game is run then your only realistic option is to withdraw. Madejski's approach will only bring increasing levels of disillusionment and disappointment to both him and the supporters of RFC.

I think you have missed the point. That's like saying, "well we all know we are in a house price bubble but if you want to buy a house you will have to pay more."

And we all know what happened there - some are struggling, but most are being protected (via our taxes) against the consequences of their greed and folly. We can wait and wait for the profligate to fail so that we can float to the top on a cushion of our own financial rectitude, but it ain't gonna happen. New owner and go for broke is the only way forward, as Blackburn, Leicester and no doubt a few others are beginning to realise.

[pea]

Its a shame because that culture is dropping down a league now too and a select few clubs in the Championship are being taken over by foreign investors who will just pump funds in until they get bored and then pull out and watch the club fall apart. I don't buy that Cardiff are one of these clubs, Portsmuth were meant to become one of the richest clubs last summer and then none of their bills or wages were paid. Cardiff have been dodging tax on the premise that these millions are going to come shortly and they're still unable to pay a relatively small fee to Motherwell and keep up with their PAYE payments.

There is going to need to be a root and branch change of football but everyone is shirking the responsbility. But it needs to be done sooner before it destroys the game.

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

And now Cardiff have Belllamy using money they don't have. It's a disgrace and I won't be parting with a penny more to support such a corrupt and unjust system (and yes, I know it's my club that feels that most, but there is a principal at stake here).

Why does everyone think this is the case?

They have been taken over by a very rich Malaysian who is bankrolling them. He paid all the tax bills and presumably will be stumping up for Bellamys wages too. If he hadn't appeared they would be in administration.

Well, up until very recently they were forbidden from any transfer activity. And the fact that they need 7 days to pay Motherwell 175k - which given that the chairman is so wealthy could have been paid within hours of their action statement yesterday - suggests to me that cash is not as free flowing as it will need to be.

[Hoop Blah]

I wonder what made their new owner decide that Cardiff were a better buy than Reading - afterall, we are meant to be an extremely well run club with the potential to become another Arsenal and with a Chairman who says he wants to sell.

Who knows, perhaps he has Welsh connections...

More likely he might've taken a look and Madejski may not have been interested because he didn't think he was the right kind of guy to have the best interest of the club at heart.

Let's see how he pans out at Cardiff (long term not just the few months of playing with his new toy) before we mourn the lack of a rich foreign sugar daddy to throw money at us and make us another soul-less team of mercenaries on silly money a week.

As much as I think we need to invest a little more to be competitive I trust Madejski to hand over the reigns to the right person and not just some fly-by-night random with too much money on their hands.

How easily do you think David Moores or Martin Edwards sleep having ruined theirs and their families hard work by selling to the wrong people?

[Once were Biscuitmen]

Spot on. But I wonder whether Madejski will ever realise that he alone is not big or powerful enough to buck the 'system' that is modern day English professional football. The rules of the game have been very clearly set and if you really want to succeed then you have no option but to play by them. If you don't like the way the game is run then your only realistic option is to withdraw. Madejski's approach will only bring increasing levels of disillusionment and disappointment to both him and the supporters of RFC.

I think you have missed the point. That's like saying, "well we all know we are in a house price bubble but if you want to buy a house you will have to pay more."

And we all know what happened there - some are struggling, but most are being protected (via our taxes) against the consequences of their greed and folly. We can wait and wait for the profligate to fail so that we can float to the top on a cushion of our own financial rectitude, but it ain't gonna happen. New owner and go for broke is the only way forward, as Blackburn, Leicester and no doubt a few others are beginning to realise.

This is a great way to end up where Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Portsmouth etc are. The logical thing to do would have been to wait for the crash and then to have bought a house.

A CVA is not always a, "get out of jail free" card and the risk is that the club could cease to exist. Given the greatest upside for Reading would be a few years sat next to glory hunters in the Prem I'm quite happy to watch mid table, 2nd tier football in the knowledge that the club will still be here long after I'm not.

If you want to win every week, just buy a Sky subscription, a Man Utd replica shirt (and a Norwich scarf obviously) and save yourself the traffic jam.

[DOYLERSAROYALER]

I understand that Cardiff wont have to pay Bellamys wages - Man City are loaning him to Cardiff for no layout (to maintain match fitness ) and they will continue to pay his c£90k a week wages....

Sounds too good to be true really but there we go !

[CMRoyal]

I think you have missed the point. That's like saying, "well we all know we are in a house price bubble but if you want to buy a house you will have to pay more."

And we all know what happened there - some are struggling, but most are being protected (via our taxes) against the consequences of their greed and folly. We can wait and wait for the profligate to fail so that we can float to the top on a cushion of our own financial rectitude, but it ain't gonna happen. New owner and go for broke is the only way forward, as Blackburn, Leicester and no doubt a few others are beginning to realise.

This is a great way to end up where Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Portsmouth etc are. The logical thing to do would have been to wait for the crash and then to have bought a house.

A CVA is not always a, "get out of jail free" card and the risk is that the club could cease to exist. Given the greatest upside for Reading would be a few years sat next to glory hunters in the Prem I'm quite happy to watch mid table, 2nd tier football in the knowledge that the club will still be here long after I'm not.

If you want to win every week, just buy a Sky subscription, a Man Utd replica shirt (and a Norwich scarf obviously) and save yourself the traffic jam.

Oh, don't get me wrong, we've had these conversations before and I've always said I'd rather we be a Norwich or Charlton than a Bradford or Leeds. And I've stuck to paying down the mortgage on my l'il ol' red brick box and will cash in my savings on a cheap, debt-free deal when properties do finally crash and burn - maybe the club will be able to do similar with players one day, too.

I'm just responding to those who want us to get back up to the top table at any cost - to do that you've got to take the risk. And the clubs you mention are still in existence so it's no surprise that many are questioning the wisdom of retaining a tight grip on the wallet. Like you, I'm happy for us to to remain in the top 30-50 teams in the country whilst financial madness reigns.

[brendywendy]

was 100m in th eprem.

went down to 80 million the 1st year down.
imagine it went down another 20 million when we didnt go up, and sold our remaining box office players.
and another few million this year.

id imagine that JM would currently take what was owed him, plus a little profit


but still more than cardiff

[Terminal Boardom]

I wonder what made their new owner decide that Cardiff were a better buy than Reading - afterall, we are meant to be an extremely well run club with the potential to become another Arsenal and with a Chairman who says he wants to sell.

Who knows, perhaps he has Welsh connections...

More likely he might've taken a look and Madejski may not have been interested because he didn't think he was the right kind of guy to have the best interest of the club at heart.

My gut feeling is that SJM will only sell to whom HE considers to be the right person. This would mean somene who would be less successful than he has been as the daft old coot has too big an ego to potect.

[RoyalBlue]

I wonder what made their new owner decide that Cardiff were a better buy than Reading - afterall, we are meant to be an extremely well run club with the potential to become another Arsenal and with a Chairman who says he wants to sell.

He could afford to buy Cardiff, but he could never afford to buy RFC.
Purchase RFC = £100M give or take a few, TO BE PAID UP FRONT.
Purchase Cardiff = buy debt from bank, shady CVA stuff, realistic short term cost = £15-25M, get promoted = everything was free.

Sounds like in terms of the current modus operandi of English professional football, Cardiff are operating to a far better business plan!!!!

Wonder what makes RFC worth £100M?

The fact that there is no sign of a buyer would suggest the market doesn't agree with that valuation.

[Seal]

I love all this "some clubs are in financial trouble therefore the soul of football is corrupt and I'm not participating in it anymore" stuff

Do you stop buying cars, using a bank and going on holiday because a few of those business that have been run badly collapse?

Isn't debt a part of business? Didn't Ford borrow $26bn to restructure their whole business?

As long as clubs pay their bills what's the problem? I can't believe everyone getting so work up over Cardiff and Pompey. Pompey got relegated and lost all their player so have had certainly paid some degree of their dues. Cardiff are gambling and we wait to see if it pays off. Good luck to them. If it doesn't then we can all laugh and say "i told you so". I'm sure Motherwell will get their money soon enough. It was just a nice PR opportunity to jump on the back of the Bellamy story. Standard stuff.

[Wycombe Royal]

I understand that Cardiff wont have to pay Bellamys wages - Man City are loaning him to Cardiff for no layout (to maintain match fitness ) and they will continue to pay his c£90k a week wages....

Sounds too good to be true really but there we go !

The un says that Cardiff are picking up HALF his wages, that's right £45k per week.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I love all this "some clubs are in financial trouble therefore the soul of football is corrupt and I'm not participating in it anymore" stuff

Do you stop buying cars, using a bank and going on holiday because a few of those business that have been run badly collapse?

Isn't debt a part of business? Didn't Ford borrow $26bn to restructure their whole business?

As long as clubs pay their bills what's the problem? .

they aren't paying their bills. that's the problem. Any other business would have been wound up by the courts.


By deliberately not paying tax they are effectively doubling their wage budget. It gives them an advantage over clubs that do try to budget correctly.

I think the government should call for the law meaning football debt comes first and has to be paid in full to be scrapped. Then, I'm pretty sure, you'd see the league taking a tougher stand on clubs who deliberately run up bills far in excess of their incomes.

[under the tin]

To be fair, this thread has meandered away from the original discussion, where some of us feel that having a central defence that could prove a liability to the team, and not addressing it because of budgetary constraints, could, in time, prove to be the mother of false economies should the club suffer relegation.
The discussion has broadened out into football finances generally, but to pick up on your comments...

I love all this "some clubs are in financial trouble therefore the soul of football is corrupt and I'm not participating in it anymore" stuff
Do you stop buying cars, using a bank and going on holiday because a few of those business that have been run badly collapse?
Isn't debt a part of business? Didn't Ford borrow $26bn to restructure their whole business?
Borrowing to restucture, rebuild a stadium is one thing, paying unsustainable wages to stellar footballers, then short changing all the other creditors when the money runs out is quite something else.
As long as clubs pay their bills what's the problem? Portsmouth haven'tI can't believe everyone getting so work up over Cardiff and Pompey. Pompey got relegated and lost all their player so have had certainly paid some degree of their dues. Cardiff are gambling and we wait to see if it pays off. Good luck to them. If it doesn't then we can all laugh and say "i told you so". I'm sure Motherwell will get their money soon enough. It was just a nice PR opportunity to jump on the back of the Bellamy story. Standard stuff.

Portsmouth, like any other city in the UK, has areas of social deprivation. I've no doubt that Pompey trawl around their local schools, encouraging those kids to support their local team, whilst at the same time, pay players via offshore companies, so that those players can circumnavigate their tax liabilities, depriving those very schools of money. Where is the social conscience?
Clubs like Pompey may not be financially bankrupt, but they certainly are, morally.

[brendywendy]

if clubs renege on agreed payments to other clubs cos they have no money, then go and buy in new players, and pay big wages, then its clearly not right and should be stopped.


regarding reading. im happy that the club spends onky what it has,even if that means relegation again