Set Pieces versus Open Play

Snowball
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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 12:22

Wimb I'll throw in the 'Long is decent because of goals to minutes on the pitch stat' then as soon as he starts playing 90 minutes it's 'external factors are to blame for his lack of goals'



Except that BEFORE he started playing the "1" in 4-5-1
I said I believed him to be totally unsuited to the role
and would fail to score goals if selected.


The MANAGER says he's an unsung hero and does a lot
for the team, he's just won man of the match for Ireland


But I still maintain he's far more suited to playing in a 4-4-2


And (repeat) I said this at the start of last season

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 13:07

Here's a few old posts


Re: Striker for 4-5-1/4-3-3 Post Snowball, 21 Jul 2009 21:07

IF we are talking a player like Jason Scotland, good at receiving and holding up
then IMO the only player who MIGHT (and I haven't seen him play) is Mooney

I can't see Shane doing it (not a brilliant first touch)


Re: Striker for 4-5-1/4-3-3 Post Snowball, 22 Jul 2009 16:22

Agreed, I just don't think his game is suited to being the 1 in 4-5-1


Re: Striker for 4-5-1/4-3-3 Post Snowball, 21 Jul 2009 21:11

Again, I don't see Shane on the end of that kind of ball, whereas the front few seemed to have quite a good understanding in the first half on Monday



Re: Striker for 4-5-1/4-3-3 Post Snowball, 22 Jul 2009 17:29
There is no LOGICAL reason why he shouldn't score 20 goals if he plays 40+ games. He ought to be slightly stronger than he was at the end of last year, so, IF HE CAN FIT THE SYSTEM

(emphasis was in original post)

Re: Striker for 4-5-1/4-3-3 Post Snowball, 22 Jul 2009

I even hinted at Kebe’s future

True, but of they were playing 4-3-3 then the "wingers" are expected to cut in more and act more as strikers. Our wingers were expected to get crosses in. Those who don't like Kebe may want to consider what might happen if some of his dribbling was inside the box


How long has Long got? 03 September 2009

I have also said he WOULDN'T be likely to start in a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 and seems to be suited to 4-2-2. I also said that in a 4-5-1/4-3-3 it would be probable that Henry and Church would be ahead of him in the pecking order

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by SLAMMED » 15 Oct 2010 16:04

Great thread as aLOLways.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 16:11

Well, thank-you Slammed. We still meeting at seven?

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by SLAMMED » 15 Oct 2010 16:12

Yes. Wear the red dress and nipple clamps I bought you.


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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 16:25

OK luv.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 16:27

Snowball
Wimb I'll throw in the 'Long is decent because of goals to minutes on the pitch stat' then as soon as he starts playing 90 minutes it's 'external factors are to blame for his lack of goals'





Striker Shane Long will come into the game in high spirits after scoring and then winning man of the match in two appearances for Ireland, and the boss commented, "I was delighted for him. I met his manager Giovanni Trapattoni last week, had a good chat with him, we spoke about Shane and he was talking about how much he is maturing and getting better as a player. He's still a young man, only started playing the game late.




Those European Cup-Winning managers, ay?

Why can't they see what us insightful fans can see?

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Hoop Blah » 15 Oct 2010 17:03

Well for starters you'll never hear a manager rubbishing a player whilst they're still paying their wages, playing them and of course trying to motivate them to perform.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Wimb » 15 Oct 2010 18:45

Once again you totally miss the point Snowball.

I'm not disputing the fact you say he wouldn't suit a 4-5-1 and that's affected his goals. The fact is that you can't back a player based on 'stats' one minute and then the next minute dismiss those same 'stats' due to outside factors. At the time I remember arguing with you that that goals to minutes ratio isn't an accurate reflection of his quality beccaue he'd not proved it over a long period of time and that often subs can grab goals that other strikers wouldn't etc etc, in other words a bunch of outside factors that wouldn't neccesarily show up in your stats.

I'm not arguing about whether Long is a good player, I'm pointing out how stupidly you can manipulate pure statistics to suit your agenda and questioning how you can put blind faith in the numbers one minute and then dismiss the same numbers the next minute.

One minute goals scored from a collection of sub appearances and can be used to judge his quality, the next minute we should dismiss THAT SAME STAT because of unquantifiable statistics such as the 'quality' of players around him and the 'formation'.

You used your own opinion that Shane is suited to a 4-4-2 to back the fact that he's a good player, which is something very different from stats and that's what many other fans do when they come to disputing or having a different interpretation of some of the stats you provide us with. The annoying thing is that when other fans go off things other then stats to suggest you might be wrong then you throw a hissy fit and refuse to even concede they might be right or your stats may be misleading.


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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 20:21

Wimb You used your own opinion that Shane is suited to a 4-4-2 to back the fact that he's a good player, which is something very different from stats and that's what many other fans do when they come to disputing or having a different interpretation of some of the stats you provide us with. The annoying thing is that when other fans go off things other then stats to suggest you might be wrong then you throw a hissy fit and refuse to even concede they might be right or your stats may be misleading.


But aren't there stats showing that Shane scores far more often in a 4-4-2 than 4-5-1?

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Wimb » 15 Oct 2010 20:29

On paper yes, however like his lack of goals to minutes ratio now might lead you to believe he's a terrible striker, those stats can be misleading. I'm not trying to say which stats are right or wrong, I'm trying to get an admission from you that stats NEVER tell the whole story :roll:

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 20:32

and BTW, there are stats "after the fact" and there are PREDICTIONS.

I predicted that Shane wouldn't score as many goals playing 4-5-1


Stats and Causality.


I am totally aware that correlation doesn't mean causality.
The classic is example is the number of Bishops in Northern
Ireland correlating with prositutes in Newcastle.

But basic experimental processes are different if you PREDICT the effect and which way it will go.

If I say, "Harte & Zurab being in the squad will lower the average number of goals conceded"
the degree of difference required is instantly halved (as I'm predicting in one direction.)

Of course it is true that it might be nothing to do with them, and I've taken a random two
players and it's pure coincidence. But "non-statistically speaking" if we were in the pub and I said,

"Zurab is a class act, better IMO than Mills or Pearce, and he'll increase competition. Harte is serious
class and has top-top experience and will bring a lot of stability to the defence despite his age and slowness
(but I expect him to get ripped every tenth or so game.) I predict we'll start letting in less goals and we'll
score a few more free-kicks and convert almost all our penalties."

That's a prediction. All we need to say my prediction came right is a significant difference in goals conceded,
and if we were arguing in the pub eight weeks later, we would all naturally look at goals-conceded.

That is, even if no-one uses the word, we search for statistical evidence to measure the accuracy of our predictions.


And YES, it MIGHT be that Griffin has improved, Pearce/Mills have played their ten best-ever games, Federici
has suddenly become world-class. It's POSSIBLE. But I made the prediction in this fictional pub, and it came right,
and there are sound reasons (their ability and the fact that they played, for example) to suggest that they ARE
the reason for the change in fortunes.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by SLAMMED » 15 Oct 2010 20:34

Do you really have nothing better to do?


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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 20:37

Wimb On paper yes, however like his lack of goals to minutes ratio now might lead you to believe he's a terrible striker, those stats can be misleading. I'm not trying to say which stats are right or wrong, I'm trying to get an admission from you that stats NEVER tell the whole story :roll:



I see. I'll buy you a dozen pints if you can find ANYWHERE
where I've said "Stats tell the whole story."

In fact my previous post talks about how they might not.


But what peeees me off is that the vast majority of posters here merely "assert" things,
often with very little justification.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 15 Oct 2010 20:37

SLAMMED Do you really have nothing better to do?


Well you're here, posting.

I turned up at seven but you weren't there so I've cut the dress up.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Stranded » 15 Oct 2010 21:35

Thank god we have a game tomorrow before snowball single handly kills this forum off.

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by SLAMMED » 16 Oct 2010 00:06

Snowball
SLAMMED Do you really have nothing better to do?


Well you're here, posting.

I turned up at seven but you weren't there so I've cut the dress up.


What about the clamps and car battery?

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Wimb » 16 Oct 2010 10:24

Snowball
Wimb On paper yes, however like his lack of goals to minutes ratio now might lead you to believe he's a terrible striker, those stats can be misleading. I'm not trying to say which stats are right or wrong, I'm trying to get an admission from you that stats NEVER tell the whole story :roll:



I see. I'll buy you a dozen pints if you can find ANYWHERE
where I've said "Stats tell the whole story."

In fact my previous post talks about how they might not.


But what peeees me off is that the vast majority of posters here merely "assert" things,
often with very little justification.


Of course users assert things and offer little justification, this is HobNob afterall :D

But the fact you're ducking out on the main issue every poster has with you is why you'll continue to get grief. Everyone is just asking you to accept your stats/assertions/causality/predictions, whatever you want to call them MIGHT be wrong.

Why are you so quick to say now that the stats on Long can be misleading when at the time you were so vociferous in defence of the goals to minutes stat to prove that your opinion on Long was right. If I were to throw that same stat back at you to prove that Long isn't a good player would you back me on pure statistical grounds? (not that I would but by your logic the stats back my opinion up just as much as extrapolating a bunch of sub appearences and performance in different eras etc, no?)

Other then Long the other classic example you used last year was MacD's points to games ratio, and how you used cup results to extrapolate league positions and prove how much better he was then Rodgers. As soon as people questioned about whether it was fair to include cup games you went off on one. Including those cup games pointed to you pushing your own agenda that McD was X times better then Rodgers simply because any other statistician or football fan NEVER attributes league points to cup games, on the grounds that they realise cup games especially those that finish 30 minutes longer then a league game, hold no bearing to league performances.

It is possible to concede ground on something yet still present your opinions and back them with statistical evidence, just actually concede some of the flaws in those stats and people will be happy.

Can't bother to argue the point anymore but if you want more credibility just lay off and present your stats the way Strap does, without an agenda and without proclaiming things left right and centre about how they show X and Y is a good player/bad player etc etc. If you do have opinions or points where your stats might be open to attack then admit them and just agree to disagree

It's nothing personal I know that you're not trying to wind people up and that you're an educated decent bloke but in my opinion you're just a bit stubborn on this one issue (not that I'm saying I'm a perfect poster btw)

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 30 Oct 2010 20:36

Wimb
I'm not disputing the fact you say he wouldn't suit a 4-5-1 and that's affected his goals. The fact is that you can't back a player based on 'stats' one minute and then the next minute dismiss those same 'stats' due to outside factors.





of course you can


3 examples


A striker is asked to play centre-half for twenty games

A centre-half goes in goal

A player known to be prolific in a 4-4-2 is asked to play the 1 in a very defensive 451

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Re: Set Pieces versus Open Play

by Snowball » 11 Nov 2010 00:51

You counted the attacking free-kicks for RFC today v Cardiff?






ONE






(Which is why you need to average them out over 10 games at least before deciding how many we get)

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