Long - Time to go.

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cmonurz
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Re: Long - Time to go.

by cmonurz » 24 Oct 2010 20:01

Snowball
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If we are going to stick with one up on their own though Long isn't ever going to score that many. Ideally, if we want to consistently trouble the tops teams and challenge for the playoffs, we need our centre forward to chip in with more than a couple of penalties in a dozen games.


but we are eighth, just two points off the play-offs

1 13 +21 29 Queens Park Rangers
2 12 +10 26 Cardiff City
3 13 +05 23 Swansea City
4 13 +04 23 Norwich City
5 13 +07 21 Watford
6 13 +04 21 Coventry City
7 13 +06 20 Burnley
8 13 +07 19 Reading


We narrowly lost to Swansea who were 7/8th
Millwall were 3rd when we drew 0-0 with them
Ipswich were 4th when we beat them 1-0
Burnley were fourth when we hammered them 4-0


MORE selective statistics.

Bristol City were bottom when they beat us. Scunthorpe, who beat us at home, are 19th, Middlesbrough are 20th. That screams of inconsistency.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Finch » 24 Oct 2010 21:32

Is Shane LOLong your number 1 striker?

He was shite 5 years ago and by the sounds of it, has gone backwards.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Millsy » 24 Oct 2010 21:36

Snowball you confuse me.

You are seriously trying to argue that we don't need a striker? :shock:

If so, with all the obsession with stats and time you spend here, I suspect you work for the club.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Millsy » 24 Oct 2010 21:37

Finch Is Shane LOLong your number 1 striker?

He was shite 5 years ago and by the sounds of it, has gone backwards.

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Oh you don't understand.

He works hard and is good to animals.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Finch » 24 Oct 2010 21:48

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Finch Is Shane LOLong your number 1 striker?

He was shite 5 years ago and by the sounds of it, has gone backwards.

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Oh you don't understand.

He works hard and is good to animals.


He wasn't good to muppet_

(Sorry, couldn't resist)


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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Selma Park » 24 Oct 2010 22:16

Hoop Blah
Selma Park Absolute shit from the usual suspects.

Shane just needs a good goal poacher with him. He has a phenomenal work rate, and is a creator to boot. I have not failed to be impressed watching him this season.


Isn't that pretty much what most people have said on this thread?

If we are going to stick with one up on their own though Long isn't ever going to score that many. Ideally, if we want to consistently trouble the tops teams and challenge for the playoffs, we need our centre forward to chip in with more than a couple of penalties in a dozen games.


Indeed. Just backing you all up of course :wink:

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 24 Oct 2010 23:02

cmonurz
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If we are going to stick with one up on their own though Long isn't ever going to score that many. Ideally, if we want to consistently trouble the tops teams and challenge for the playoffs, we need our centre forward to chip in with more than a couple of penalties in a dozen games.


but we are eighth, just two points off the play-offs

1 13 +21 29 Queens Park Rangers
2 12 +10 26 Cardiff City
3 13 +05 23 Swansea City
4 13 +04 23 Norwich City
5 13 +07 21 Watford
6 13 +04 21 Coventry City
7 13 +06 20 Burnley
8 13 +07 19 Reading


We narrowly lost to Swansea who were 7/8th
Millwall were 3rd when we drew 0-0 with them
Ipswich were 4th when we beat them 1-0
Burnley were fourth when we hammered them 4-0


MORE selective statistics.

Bristol City were bottom when they beat us. Scunthorpe, who beat us at home, are 19th, Middlesbrough are 20th. That screams of inconsistency.



Psst, Brainiac, you see how I UNDERLINED that bit of Hoop's message?

I was ANSWERING THAT, SEE? You know, "trouble the top teams", GEDDIT?

So I referred to the TOP TEAMS WE HAVE TROUBLED.

And see the other bit of Hoop's question, about challenging for the play-offs?
Well that's why I pointed out we were currently eighth.


Please try harder.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 24 Oct 2010 23:11

2 world wars, 1 world cup Snowball you confuse me.

You are seriously trying to argue that we don't need a striker? :shock:

If so, with all the obsession with stats and time you spend here, I suspect you work for the club.




When we lost two games 1-0 and missed chances, I thought, hmmm

EITHER

We need a new striker

OR

We are playing the wrong system


But didn't we just win at Burnley 4-0, against a side I seriously thought would probably go straight back up, a side who demolished Hull 4-0 and had W5 D1 15-3 at home, who were "sublime" in their last game and have serious Premiership quality?


So, I thought. We were getting better, challenging for the play-offs, and had the 3rd/4th best goal-difference in the league. Maybe we don't need to score lots of goals because we are playing a tight game which doesn't concede many... but then along came those two 1-0 defeats, and I wobbled, but it was counteracted by our best result of the season (by a street) so I'm thinking. NO, right now we don't need a striker, because, overall we are getting results, AND, if Tabb-Howard REALLY starts to work, we will make the chances, and take the chances. So NO, no striker. Not this week.

Now if we lose 5 of the next 8 "because we missed a load of chances", THEN I will think we need a striker.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by floyd__streete » 24 Oct 2010 23:20

Snowball Now if we lose 5 of the next 8 "because we missed a load of chances", THEN I will think we need a striker.


:lol: love the arbitary figures you throw around when deciding what you think is an acceptable level of performance for our forwards. If we lose 4 of the next 8 and draw the other 4 presumably you'll be happy enough with them? And will this all go to prove that we won't lose at home to Bristol City 8)


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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Hoop Blah » 24 Oct 2010 23:25

What if we fail to win those games despite playing reasonably well because either our current strikers don't get in the right positions or hold the ball up well enough to make the most of promising moves/possession or, we lack the tactical flexibility that we need in many situations because we don't have different option to our 3 similar frontline strikers.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Millsy » 25 Oct 2010 00:31

Snowball this is exactly as I feared. Win a game a striker scores in open play and all of a sudden everyhting is ok.

It doesn't take a blind donkey to see that our squad is missing a goalscorer and to suggest otherwise is comical.

I'm quite surpised at you tbh as I normally respect what you have to say.

But this is taking the p*ss.

Almost every game that we haven't won this season would've been a different story had we had the OPTION of a decent striker on the bench, or starting.

Noone can deny it would transform the squad - and that's even if Long was banging them in left, right and centre - which he isn't.

I don't know why I'm even entertaining this farce of a debate.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by brendywendy » 25 Oct 2010 10:18

Almost every game that we haven't won this season would've been a different story had we had the OPTION of a decent striker on the bench


just making stuff up there tbf

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by andrew1957 » 25 Oct 2010 10:26

One of the problems for Long since Sig left is that he has had very little service. As a result he was having very few chances created for him. The introduction of Tabb might suddenly make Long look like a better player.

Personally I think we have to give our strikers a chance up until the transfer window - I would only move for a new striker if they do not improve their goal tally by then.


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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 25 Oct 2010 10:28

2 world wars, 1 world cup Snowball this is exactly as I feared. Win a game a striker scores in open play and all of a sudden everyhting is ok.
It doesn't take a blind donkey to see that our squad is missing a goalscorer and to suggest otherwise is comical.
I'm quite surpised at you tbh as I normally respect what you have to say.
But this is taking the p*ss.

Almost every game that we haven't won this season would've been a different story had we had the OPTION of a decent striker on the bench, or starting.
Noone can deny it would transform the squad - and that's even if Long was banging them in left, right and centre - which he isn't.
I don't know why I'm even entertaining this farce of a debate.


Presuming we play the current system...


Bringing in say Phillips for Long, we get a more deadly striker but lose the extremely fast hard-worker (just an example)

Switching to 4-4-2 we lose midfield control as we just do not have a pair of midfielders that can take control.

I am NOT saying everything is rosy, but we ARE just two points outside the play-offs. Long Saturday won a penalty, scored a penalty, won the opposition two yellows and a red, put a goal on a plate for Antonio, forced one good save from their keeper. His flick to Tabb, BTW, just before the sending off was excellent. His interplay and running and his cross for Antonio was excellent.

I have said before that I think being the 1 in 451 is not good for Longy. I don't really like 4-5-1 as it usually means a more defensive game, more passes, less goals.

BUT NOTE


Swansea have scored 17 goals. They are third
Reading have scored 18 goals.


As I say, it's not my favourite style of play. I like to watch 4-4-2 with two clever wingers, lots of crosses, on big lump of a centre-forward and a sniffer playing off him, but we don't have Bremner and Giles in the middle, we've got Karacan-Tabb or Karacan-Howard or Tabb-Howard. If we were to get a player in I'd quite like to see a really classy dominant, hard-tackling central midielder who could get half-a-dozen goals a season.

So I THINK McDermott believes that we have an extremely solid defence (the stats say that tho' my eyes often say different) and that we will just about get enough goals to compete. In the end, at the end of the season, the key statistic is usually goal difference, meaning the sides with the best GD do best on points. WE ARE THIRD ON GOAL DIFFERENCE

1 13 +21 +1.62 Queens Park Rangers
2 12 +10 +0.83 Cardiff City
3 13 +07 +0.54 Reading
3 13 +07 +0.54 Watford

YES, bring in a striker for the games where we can play 4-4-2, play 4-5-1 away from home with a side the same or almost the same as the one that went to Burnley. Avoid getting beat away from home and steal a few wins, then AT HOME if the opposition plays 4-4-2, match em up and go full-on attacking.

But if they play 4-5-1 we know they can take the midfield and we either surrender or have to resort to the long ball. That might work against some lower-half sides but the better teams will do a Swansea on us.

Personally, INCLUDING the two poorish 0-1s I think this season is going very well. The killer result was the dumb 2-1 defeat in the opening game. And I say DUMB because I think we were rusty and blew it. Had we won that game 2-1 we'd be fifth with a GD of +9. I also think the game at Boro was a one-off and it was the 24 second goal that changed it.


This is why I say, MAYBE we need a striker, but I'd rather see how we do in the next eight games, top-top opposition and the three sides that aren't right up there are also difficult. If we could win 4, draw 2 lose 2 from those 8 (14 points) I'd be ecstatic. If we W3 D2 L3 (11 points) I'd say we don't have a problem, but are looking like finishing 7-10th. We might get tanked by QPR, Norwich, Cardiff, Watford, lose at Sheff Utd and fail to beat Leeds, Donny and Coventry. THEN, in sixteenth place, I'll concede.

Personally, I think Donny will be hard to beat. Beat them and we may well go on a good run and in 8 games time we'll have an even better GD and an even better league position.

I think Donny is an important game. A good win and the believe will become massive. A defeat and Burnley will seem like an anomaly. A 0-0 where the strikers fail (as opposed to the midfield not creating chances) and the clamour for a striker will increase. Remember what you wish for. It's not always about the target men.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 25 Oct 2010 10:34

andrew1957 One of the problems for Long since Sig left is that he has had very little service. As a result he was having very few chances created for him. The introduction of Tabb might suddenly make Long look like a better player.

Personally I think we have to give our strikers a chance up until the transfer window - I would only move for a new striker if they do not improve their goal tally by then.


Agree with this. Example, Long had a very difficult chance against Swansea where a deep cross came in and he half-back-headed it at the near post. YES it's a chance, but it's not a cross coming in from the by-line cut back on his head eight yards out.

Church has missed a few good chances, chances that he SHOULD have done better with. (But if he ever becomes lethal he'll move up)


Long is at his best running in onto a cross or put through where he can use his strength and speed.

He got TWO pens like that against Barnsley, another on Saturday v Burnley, and skinned the defender at Bristol in the same way but chose to try and cross for Hunt.

IMO he looks a far far better player when being allowed to run, showing power, speed, strength.

Hopefully, if the Tabb-Howard-Karacan show on Saturday can be repeated, he'll start getting goals.

Funny how the Burnley fans really rated Shane...

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by The Positive One! » 25 Oct 2010 10:38

Well done Snowball - at least someone is talking some sense! The rest of you leave the strikers alone - service is all they need and that will come when the midfield is settled and the service is there.

Remember - it is a TEAM game - stop picking on specific players - it is totally unnecessary!!

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by ZacNaloen » 25 Oct 2010 10:41

I actually think that with a settled midfield Church is likely to be the more prolific striker, he's shown flashes of brilliance (he does seem to start seasons without his shooting boots on though) and ended up scoring a respectable number of goals with only a handful of starts last year.

But Long does an excellent job and as long as others are scoring goals as well and Long is doing the job the manager asks him to do there's not much room for complaint. We just struggled with goals in the last couple of games, so criticisms will be raised.

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by sandman » 25 Oct 2010 10:43

Long is a poor man's Doyle There can't be much argument about that (come up with all the stats you want Snowball you're on ignore). Shane will work hard and that is to his credit but sooner or later he's got to justify his place by doing what strikers are payed to do and that is putting the ball in the net (it would help if he spent less time on the wing).

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by ZacNaloen » 25 Oct 2010 10:50

sandman Long is a poor man's Doyle There can't be much argument about that (come up with all the stats you want Snowball you're on ignore). Shane will work hard and that is to his credit but sooner or later he's got to justify his place by doing what strikers are payed to do and that is putting the ball in the net (it would help if he spent less time on the wing).



'greed with that

He's got a cracking cross on him though, maybe he should really be a winger. :wink:

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Re: Long - Time to go.

by Snowball » 25 Oct 2010 11:14

I can't remember any bad misses by Shane but thought I'd go through the reports and see. (And they DO report misses)

No need to read the cuttings but it's clear (as I thought) that Shane has not had any/many "bad misses" this season and has been living off scraps. He pulls a LOT of fouls, has won three penalties and had a few other good penalty shouts. He's also been fouled more than once just as he was about to get away. In other words he's a real handful for defences and wears them down. At least two opposition players have been sent off for fouling Shane. Doesn't that have a considerable effect on our results?

His aggression, power, speed, tenacity wears down the opposition, and as said before, maybe that is why we get so many late goals, because Shane has done the hard work.

But the important point. Shane is not missing many seriously decent chances. He has made a few sitters that were missed by others.








SCUNTHORPE

First game. I'd forgotten how we were "playing with 9 men" at the end

With all three subs on, Shane Long picked up a knock but was forced to bravely battle on when clearly not fit, then the same happened to Matt Mills and we were effectively down to nine fully fit players.

Shane did brilliantly in that game. Badly crocked yet got in a number of crosses

PORTSMOUTH Out Injured

The goal allowed us to step up a gear, and we nearly scored a cracking second when Gylfi Sigurdsson sent Jobi McAnuff down the left but his whipped cross was just too far ahead of the onrushing Long in the middle.

FOREST

Long was giving the home defence no time on the ball, and he shrugged off Ryan Bertrand to win possession in a good area. He picked out Brian Howard with a good pass, but the midfielder miscued badly. It fell straight to McAnuff, but he missed the target and a decent chance had passed.

LEICESTER

Midway through the half, we took a deserved lead with an excellent goal. Brynjar Gunnarsson found Sigurdsson with a good pass down the channel, and his touch and pass were exquisite. Shane Long put Joao Teixeira Moreno under pressure, and our Irishman was clearly fouled but referee Webster played a good advantage. It ran to Kebe, who found Sigurdsson with an excellent low pass, and the Icelander produced a fabulous finish, dinking over the onrushing 'keeper. A top class finish from a top class player.

Just before the break we looked much the more likely to score again, Long getting a good header goalwards from Howard's free kick.


PALACE

Shane Long was instrumental in our first two goals, winning a penalty in each half with pace and quality; stroking home the first spot kick himself.
Matt Mills had also hit the bar in the first half, and there were a number of good individual performances; Long and Harte, not just for their goals, while Jem Karacan was excellent in the centre of the park.
Down the other end, Long did well to cut inside a couple of challenges but shot wide at the near post (MISS)

Long was then withdrawn to a huge ovation, fully deserved after an excellent display of pace, power and quality.

MILLWALL

Soon it was Millwall keeper David Forde's turn to pull off a cracking save, keeping out Long's header at point blank range after McAnuff did exceptionally well to get a cross in to the back post. Long looked destined to score but the home 'keeper denied him with a Schmeichel-style block.

With nine minutes on the clock home captain Paul Robinson was arguably fortunate not to be sent off. Reading won possession in a dangerous area, and Shane Long was put through, darting in from the left channel. Robinson clearly pulled our Irish striker back, but referee Dave Phillips only produced a yellow card despite Long having a clear run at goal.

McAnuff delivered a great cross from the right, and the flag seemed to go up just as Long tried to get his head on it. The Irishman left it for Kebe, who finished with aplomb, and it looked a very close decision against the Malian as he stabbed home a sidefoot volley.

BORO

There was still time for Shane Long to look like he was pushed over by Arca inside the area after Steele had come for a high ball but failed to get to it.

Long had some defending to do and cleared an effort off the line afr a Boro corner. We quickly went up the other end, and Harte had a good strike deflected a foot or so wide - potentially by David Wheater's arm!


BARNSLEY

Despite having ten men we looked far more likely to score, and sub Hal Robson-Kanu seemed to have a chance with his first touch but elected to go for control rather than a first time strike. He got it back in the box for Shane Long, and his header was well saved by Steele


IPSWICH

On 19 minutes Robson-Kanu showed the ability that prompted Brian McDermott to bring him into the starting XI, skinning two Town defenders down our left wing and getting in a brilliant cross that the visitors just about hacked clear after a scramble involving Shane Long and Jimmy Kebe. (MISS?)

Soon afterwards Robson-Kanu played another fabulous ball down the line for Long, and the Irishman found Kebe in the middle, but despite showing great feet the Malian shot wide with his left foot.

before Long and then Town frontman Scotland failed to capitalise on half chances.

Cummings got in a good left footed cross that Long glanced goalwards - fortunately for Fulop it was right at him; anywhere else and it was 1-0.

PRESTON

On ten minutes Reading broke exceptionally well, Simon Church and Shane Long involved in releasing skipper Jobi McAnuff down the left. He cut infield onto his right foot and curled an excellent effort that clipped the top of the bar; Andy Lonergan well beaten in the North End goal.

We had a decent chance to respond almost straight away, but Long didn't get a clean contact on his header from Harte's excellent cross. (MISS?)

Long pulls another card. With 12 minutes gone Preston were reduced to ten men, and Russell was the man sent off for his second bookable offence; a challenge on Long 35 yards from goal. It looked a tight decision but the referee was right on the spot and Russell did not seem to have too many complaints.

SWANSEA

Inside the first couple of minutes Reading had a decent shout for a penalty, and Shane Long made a vociferous claim as his header seemed to hit a Swansea arm but nothing was given.

We had started the brighter of the two sides, and Long flicked a half decent chance over the the bar with his head from Jem Karacan's right wing cross.(MISS)

Long went on an excellent run 12 minutes before the break, and was brought down by Angel Rangel, who was rightly booked. Jobi McAnuff took the resulting spot kick and forced Dorus De Vries to tip over the bar.

Just past the hour we began to up the tempo in our favour, and Long was sent on a good break down the right wing but his cross was just about defended.

Long then headed a decent chance over at the back post from another corner, before Noel Hunt was sent on in search of an equaliser. (MISS)

BRISTOL

A bright opening from the Royals saw Shane Long scamper down the left wing, cut inside and attempt an audacious chip on David James' goal - though it was well wide of the England international's post. (COUGH!) It looked to me like he tried to put in Hunt. Arguably he was "caught in two minds". A player in goal-scoring form would probably have laced it! Remember how well he did to get past the defender in the first place. This IS however, an example of "Had he scored we might well have gone on to win".

It was clear that Ashton Gate was in for a frantic night of entertainment as the game exhibited a breathless tempo, with Long and Stead both finding further glimpses of goal in the first ten minutes.

Once again Long looked to be the man threatening the City goal in the first period, though the Irish international could only hammer a long range effort over the bar after good interplay with Noel Hunt on 39 minutes.

A superb Long backheel allowed McAnuff to sprint through on goal, and the winger's centred cross fell to Kebe - who saw his effort well stopped by James. Somehow in the ensuing battle the Robins backline hooked the ball away for a corner kick.

On 57 minutes a brave challenge from Karacan allowed Long to break upfield and square to McAnuff, who had a clean run at goal from the half way line. The City defence however did brilliantly to track back in time to drop the shot, leaving the winger still searching for his first goal of the season.


BURNLEY

Just three minutes later we had the lead and it was a goal all of Shane Long's making. He picked the ball up perhaps 20 yards inside the Burnley half and left Leon Cort for dead with his pace and power. The Clarets' defender attempted a challenge inside the area, but was much too late and clearly fouled the Irishman as he was in on goal. It looked a clear goalscoring opportunity and there was nobody between Long and the goal, but referee Miller only showed a yellow card.

Four minutes later Long did well again down the wing, showing good strength to win possession. He tried to pick out Hal Robson-Kanu in the middle but the pass was a touch inaccurate and a decent opportunity had slipped by.

Midway through the half Long was again prominent, pouncing on a slip by former Royal Andre Bikey to go clear down the right wing. He bore down on goal, and would have preferred to work the keeper rather than shoot into the side netting from a narrowing angle. (MISS?)

We were hassling the Clarets all over the pitch, and nobody more so than Long, who won the ball in his own half ten minutes before the break and set Jobi McAnuff on the run. He tried to pick out Brian Howard in the middle, and his overhead kick went over the bar.

The second goal was always going to be crucial, and vitally it was the Royals who doubled the advantage. Not for the first time Cort fouled Long, and Harte's wide free kick was aimed to Matt Mills, whose initial effort was blocked. It fell to McAnuff and he turned home a stabbed effort from six yards. The winger had been very influential and deserved his first goal of the season.

Two minutes later Burnley were reduced to ten men, and Cort could have absolutely no complaints. He was fortunate not to be sent off in the penalty incident, and had also fouled Long for the free kick that led to the goal. Then, with Long in another good attacking position, he was rightly shown a second yellow and the Clarets were down to ten men.

First of all Long had a very good chance but just allowed Jensen to smother at his feet (MISS or good save?)

We were always going to be dangerous in search of a third goal, and Michail Antonio was a delighted scorer of his very first in a Reading shirt. Robson-Kanu found Long inside the area, and Long did superbly to beat his man and fire a low cross that Antonio tapped home from a yard.

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