Long - Time to go.

[Ian Royal]

for example Chopra's lethality is BRILLIANT. 72% of shots on target and 38% of those are goals

Can you give info for the 'lethality' of Shane Long, Noel Hunt and Simon Church please for comparison?

Tricky for Church, he's scored two goals without actually shooting.

[Hoop Blah]

Yet again snowball your stats show precisely why stats don't tell enough of a story to make them useful for insight in football.

Take Nugent for example, he's playing for a club that's been in disarray and started the season appallingly. His scoring record reflects how they struggled but to suggest he isn't a decent forward at this level is daft. To compare his scoring record as like for like with Longs ignores the other factors involved.

Look at Fryatt as another example. He's been out of favour at Leicester for various reasons and so his stats don't reflect his ability, it shows how he's underperformed.

Bellamy as another has played all his games (I think) out wide and so isn't expected to score at the same rate as if he played upfront.

Longs stats don't tell the whole story either. They don't show the contribution he's made to others success, or how he's played upfront all on his own for most of the season. The fact that he's played all bar one game shows how he's been given a lot more opportunity than most others in your lists.

Finaly, and perhaps most importantly, he's been playing in an attacking Reading side whereas a lot of these forwards (and there's a lot of shit in that list) have played for poorer and more defensive outfits.

Basically you're clutching at straws and posting more pointless spam.

[Snowball]

[

'Right now' you don't want to talk about scoring rates, because you want to point out that Shane has the same number of absolute goals as a host of other players.

Listen, H+Gwathoppa, Vewy carefully. I-WAS-MAKING-A-SEPARATE-POINT.

I know it's very difficult for you to hold more than one thing in your head at a time, but
I-WAS-MAKING-A-SEPARATE-POINT. The point is, very simply, that DOZENS of strikers,
in fact about FIVE DOZEN officially-classed-as-a-striker strikers, have, as yet, 14 or so
games into the season, scored either 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 goals.

That POINT has NOTHING to do with scoring-rates, or goals-per-minute, or goals
as a starter, or goals-as-a-sub, or the length of anyone's penis (that's a willy); it means,
wait-for-it, MERELY, wait-for-it, wait, that about FIVE DOZEN officially-classed-as-a-striker strikers,
have, as yet, 14 or so games into the season, scored either 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 goals.

And THAT means what?

It means, that after 14 games, given any individual striker, whether his name be Shane or Shaun
or Albert, whether he be LONG or short, or anywhere in between, even ZERO goals against his name,
matters-very-little

TOMMY SMITH, 9 appearances, no goals, yet he's a GREAT player at this level; Mark Cullen, FOURTEEN appearances, no goals, still being chosen; Dele Adebola, another with 9 appearances and not a single goal; Counago, no goals from 8; Gallagher no goals (NOTE ZERO GOALS, NIL GOALS, NADA ZILCH, despite ten appearances, still being picked; the VERY classy Arsenal boy Jay Simpson, TEN appearances and no goals, not one, not a goal, in round figures zero goals. You SEE?

Not one of those players is a bad player. Tommy Smith we should have paid a million for, just a season ago, but a Premiership side came in for him. NO GOALS AT ALL.

Do you get it yet?

This is not about Shane Long. It's about how ALL strikers have hot and cold patches, how bookies make loads of money, how even GREAT players can take time to find the net

[Snowball]

for example Chopra's lethality is BRILLIANT. 72% of shots on target and 38% of those are goals

Can you give info for the 'lethality' of Shane Long, Noel Hunt and Simon Church please for comparison?

Tricky for Church, he's scored two goals without actually shooting.

Church 4 (9) 3 goals. According to Ian Royal 3 goals in 4!! Ha!

Except, of course he didn't score ANY goals in 4 or the 5th (cup) game...

[Snowball]

for example Chopra's lethality is BRILLIANT. 72% of shots on target and 38% of those are goals

Can you give info for the 'lethality' of Shane Long, Noel Hunt and Simon Church please for comparison?

Last season Shane was on target about 50% of the time (18/38) (47%) but scored a third of the time (6 goals = 33.33%) he was on target.

This season he is actually on target more often (12/23) (52%) but has only netted 2 of those (16.67%) (presuming pens are counted as shots?)


Fair Play to Simon Church, his stats belie the idea he misses a lot.


11 08 On Target 03 Off 0 HW 3 Goals CHOPRA
13 07 On Target 05 Off 1 HW 2 Goals BELLAMY
13 10 On Target 03 Off 0 HW 3 Goals CHURCH
23 12 On Target 11 Off 0 HW 2 Goals LONG


That is Church (when on as a sub) exactly matches the lethality of Shane Long last season
whose six league goals all came from STARTS

Church, from starts this season, has zero goals so a lethality of ZERO per cent

[Snowball]

Yet again snowball your stats show precisely why stats don't tell enough of a story to make them useful for insight in football.

Take Nugent for example, he's playing for a club that's been in disarray and started the season appallingly.

His scoring record reflects how they struggled but to suggest he isn't a decent forward at this level is daft.

To compare his scoring record as like for like with Longs ignores the other factors involved.

Disarray and started the season appallingly?

Portsmouth have played FOURTEEN league games this season, agreed?

And last season? 38?


>>>>>> 062 Appearances 10 Goals 1 in 6.2 David Nugent, Portsmouth <<<<<<<

That is David Nugent, playing for Portsmouth over three DIFFERENT seasons, a bit this year, all last year, and a bit the season before that, I presume.


6-4 = 64, SIXTY-FOUR games, 8 x 8 games, not a couple of months of disarray, three different SEASONS

July 2007 he signed. THREE YEARS AGO PLUS FOUR MONTHS. I HAVE SHOWN HIS RECORD FOR FORTY MONTHS. HERE IT IS AGAIN

062 Appearances 10 Goals 1 GOAL in 6.2 Appearances, David Nugent, Portsmouth


Here is the URL, the Pompey Official Site


Read it and weep


http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/player/fi ... id-10.aspx

David Nugent
Position : Forward
Nationality : English
DOB : 02/05/1985
Height : 6ft 0in
Pompey Apps : 62
Pompey Goals : 10

Signed : 11/07/2007

Int Caps : England 1 (1 goal)
Prev Clubs : Bury, Preston, Burnley (loan)
Debut : 11/08/07 v Derby (A)

Former England striker joined Pompey from Preston North End – where he scored 37 goals in 107 appearances – in the summer of 2007



He made his Blues debut in a 2-2 draw at Derby on the opening day of the 2007/08 campaign and scored his first goal against Leeds in the Carling Cup later that month.



Nugent scored the only goal of the game against Ipswich in the third round of the FA Cup to set Pompey on their way to a Wembley final, coming on as a substitute as the Blues beat Cardiff to lift the trophy.



The striker spent most of the 2009/10 season on loan at Burnley where he scored six goals in 30 appearances.

[Snowball]

Wanna discuss Nugent some more, Hoop?

Maybe he was playing wide, had wife-trouble, appendicitis?

[Ian Royal]

Snowball, you're spamming again. Stop it.

[Hoop Blah]

Wanna discuss Nugent some more, Hoop?

Maybe he was playing wide, had wife-trouble, appendicitis?

If you like.

He's a very good player, especially at this level but he didn't quite cut it, for whatever reason, with Portsmouth in the Prem. He hardly got run in the side and he, much like Forster, probably needs to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond and to play week in week out to get the best out of him. He appeared to play a lot better at Burnley as it happens, so maybe he just likes the North West!

Many players don't succeed at certain clubs, much like some players just don't quite cut it in certain roles.

Do you have anything useful to add?

One thing's for sure, he's a much better player than Long and I'd swap them over like a shot!

[Snowball]

BARREN SEQUENCES

This season Shane Long has had score-less runs of 4 games, 5 games, 3 games, and lastly 1 game

This "terrible" run has an incredibly-long barren spell of FIVE games.

yet in 2005-6 Kevin Doyle had a five game blank FOUR TIMES, and also a six-game blank. He had a six-game blank in 2006-7, a five-game blank in 07-08, a run of seven games without scoring in 2008-09

and in 2008-9 he managed TEN CONSECUTIVE GAMES WITHOUT SCORING

Saving the best until last. in 2007-08 Kevin Doyle played 21 (TWENTY-ONE) consecutive games where he failed to score a single goal


HERE IS KEVIN DOYLE WHILE AT READING

Sequences without a goal

2005-06: 5-5-5-6-5
2006-07: 3-3-6-3
2007-08: 5-3-2-2-21 (Twenty-One) YES, TWENTY-ONE CONSECUTIVE GAMES WITHOUT SCORING A SINGLE GOAL
2008-09: 4-2-3-2-4-2-7-10 (TEN) YES, TEN CONSECUTIVE GAMES WITHOUT SCORING A SINGLE GOAL

SOURCE 2008-09 http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd
SOURCE 2007-08 http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd


That's not attacking KD. He was a great player, a "Legend", but the above details show that long spells without a goal are NOT rare

[Snowball]

He's a very good player, especially at this level but he didn't quite cut it, for whatever reason, with Portsmouth in the Prem. He hardly got run in the side and he, much like Forster, probably needs to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond and to play week in week out to get the best out of him. He appeared to play a lot better at Burnley as it happens, so maybe he just likes the North West!

Many players don't succeed at certain clubs, much like some players just don't quite cut it in certain roles.

Do you have anything useful to add?

One thing's for sure, he's a much better player than Long and I'd swap them over like a shot!

Oh, I see, so THAT's the problem. He's home-sick

88 (18) Bury
94 (33) Preston North End
30 (06) Burnley (loan)
62 (10) Portsmouth

So his domestic career is 274 Appearances 67 goals, for little Bury, for Preston, at Pompey, and Burnley

1 goal every 4.09 appearances. My God, you are RIGHT, this England International and Premiership player
currently on around 50K a week has a better scoring record per appearance than Shane Long.

Of course that's only if you look way back at 2002/2003/4-5-6 times. It would be unfair to look
at his Pompey days (where he was home-sick)... so maybe look at Burnley last year, that's the North-West intit?

Hmmm, Championship 2009-10 = 30 games, 6 goals, 1 goal in 5 games.

Should I compare that to Shane's full career 158 appearances for 30 goals = 1 in 5.2

or perhaps just the same season, that's fair, yes?

36 appearances, 9 goals = 1 in 4.



Hmmmm.... Let me look at that again

Championship 2009-10 = 30 appearances, 6 goals, 1 goal in 5 appearances. NUGENT
Championship 2009-10 = 36 appearances, 9 goals, 1 goal in 4 appearances, LONG


Same League, same season, almost the same number of games, level playing field. That 4 is better than that 5 isn't it?


But, let's be fair, I mean BURNLEY, how far from Preston is THAT, poor little love....

[Snowball]

Snowball, you're spamming again. Stop it.

I'm not spamming. I'm having a discussing.


The fact that you, Hoop and cmonurz would dispute
with me if I said my poo was brown and smelt funny
is, of course, not a factor.


See for example, how last season Shane Long did better than David Nugent.


I think that's because Nugent's boots were a bit tight.

[Hoop Blah]

What divisions were they playing in?

Do you believe that Long is a better player than Nugent? What makes him better?

[Snowball]

What divisions were they playing in?

Do you believe that Long is a better player than Nugent? What makes him better?

I suspect Nugent is a bad trainer or has some kind of issues outside football because he was a fantastic talent that has gone seriously astray.

Nugent at his best was very good indeed.

2009-10 he appeared 34 times in the Premiership for 6 goals (Burnley and Pompey) (1 game cup)
2008-09 he appeared 19 times in the Premiership for 2 goals (Pompey) (3 of these cup)
2007-08 he appeared 22 times in the Premiership for 3 goals (Pompey) (3 of these cup)

75 Appearances for Premiership clubs for a total of 11 goals: 1 goal every 6.8 appearances
66 Appearances for Premiership clubs for a total of 07 goals: 1 goal every 9.4 appearances

Oh my GOD, NO! NO! NO!


Shane Long was inferior to David Nugent who was transferred for 6 MILLION POUNDS to Portsmouth!!!!


And what do I think of him?

Portsmouth

After both Sunderland and Portsmouth had bids in the region of £6 million accepted for the player, Nugent was eventually unveiled as a Pompey player at a press conference alongside John Utaka on July 11, 2007.[2] However, rumours followed just weeks later that Derby County were considering a bid for Nugent and that he would be leaving Portsmouth in the same transfer window he arrived in. His subsequent stay at Portsmouth, is considered a failure. David Nugent made a non-competitive debut against Isle of Wight side Newport (IOW) F.C., Nugent scored in the game and signed many autographs in a fan filled pitch invasion for the local Premier League stars. In a post-match press conference following a Carling Cup game early on in Nugent's Pompey career, in which he scored his first goal for the club, Portsmouth manager Harry Redknapp publicly stated Nugent would be free to leave the club if the right offer came in to help fund a move for more players. However, Nugent stated he wanted to stay at Portsmouth.[3]

A possible loan deal to Ipswich Town fell through in early March 2008 with Jim Magilton, the Ipswich manager, left questioning Nugent's integrity.[4]

Nugent appeared frequently for Portsmouth in the FA Cup, scoring a goal in their initial Third Round tie against Ipswich Town. His role culminated in coming on for John Utaka in the 69th minute of the Final against Cardiff City, eventually winning the trophy.[5] The next season and after 18 months at the club, Nugent scored his first Premier League goal - against former manager Harry Redknapp at Tottenham Hotspur in a 1-1 draw on 18 January 2009. [6] Two matches later he scored his second goal at Fulham and followed this up with his first league goal at Fratton Park, scoring against Liverpool on 7 February 2009. However, these were to be Nugent's only top flight goals for Pompey.

On 5 August 2009, it was reported that Nugent had been involved in an alleged bust-up with fellow team mate Marc Wilson during Portsmouth's pre-season trip to Portugal. Both players were sent home and subsequently fined two weeks' wages by the club.[7]

On 1 September 2009, it was reported that Nugent was in talks with Burnley about a loan move. Thirty minutes after the transfer window closed it was reported that Burnley had signed Nugent on a six-month-long loan deal with a view to a permanent move, subject to Premier League clearance.[8] On 12 September, he made his debut for the Clarets when he replaced Martin Paterson 70 minutes into the game against Liverpool at Anfield. After coming on as a second half substitute for the Clarets on his home debut against Sunderland, Nugent scored two goals, helping Burnley to a 3–1 win.[9]Nugent scored his third goal of the season against Bolton.

On 30 January 2010, Nugent was told that he had to go back to Portsmouth and train with the club, but was then told to travel back to Burnley. After two days of travelling back and forth between Portsmouth and Burnley, new manager Brian Laws triggered an extension clause in Nugent's contract. Nugent signed another loan agreement with Burnley on 1 February which would keep him at the club on loan until June.



Sounds like a lovely bloke. That's what 6 Million gets you.


I definitely would prefer Long.

[royalsteve]

He needs a target man aLONGside him to function effectively. Up front on his own and he struggles. Can't complain about his commitment or workrate but there is more to being a striker than running around a lot.

agreed, long is a provider for a goalscorer.......i dont think he'll ever be a natural goalscorer

certainly a great super sub or fine as a lone striker for away matches

[Platypuss]

There are EIGHTY-TWO strikers named. I'm hardly going to research every one
and work out when they scored, whether it was a starter's or a sub's goal,
how many minutes they have played etc etc

... as I know the answer won't suit my argument.


That's snowballistics!

[Stranded]

[

'Right now' you don't want to talk about scoring rates, because you want to point out that Shane has the same number of absolute goals as a host of other players.

Listen, H+Gwathoppa, Vewy carefully. I-WAS-MAKING-A-SEPARATE-POINT.

I know it's very difficult for you to hold more than one thing in your head at a time, but
I-WAS-MAKING-A-SEPARATE-POINT. The point is, very simply, that DOZENS of strikers,
in fact about FIVE DOZEN officially-classed-as-a-striker strikers, have, as yet, 14 or so
games into the season, scored either 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 goals.

That POINT has NOTHING to do with scoring-rates, or goals-per-minute, or goals
as a starter, or goals-as-a-sub, or the length of anyone's penis (that's a willy); it means,
wait-for-it, MERELY, wait-for-it, wait, that about FIVE DOZEN officially-classed-as-a-striker strikers,
have, as yet, 14 or so games into the season, scored either 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 goals.

And THAT means what?

It means, that after 14 games, given any individual striker, whether his name be Shane or Shaun
or Albert, whether he be LONG or short, or anywhere in between, even ZERO goals against his name,
matters-very-little

TOMMY SMITH, 9 appearances, no goals, yet he's a GREAT player at this level; Mark Cullen, FOURTEEN appearances, no goals, still being chosen; Dele Adebola, another with 9 appearances and not a single goal; Counago, no goals from 8; Gallagher no goals (NOTE ZERO GOALS, NIL GOALS, NADA ZILCH, despite ten appearances, still being picked; the VERY classy Arsenal boy Jay Simpson, TEN appearances and no goals, not one, not a goal, in round figures zero goals. You SEE?

Not one of those players is a bad player. Tommy Smith we should have paid a million for, just a season ago, but a Premiership side came in for him. NO GOALS AT ALL.

Do you get it yet?

This is not about Shane Long. It's about how ALL strikers have hot and cold patches, how bookies make loads of money, how even GREAT players can take time to find the net

No it is about Long, as you wouldn't have felt the need to post these stats if you weren't looking to support Long's start to the season in goalscoring terms. The fact that you did post it, makes it about Long.

[cmonurz]

You're posts indicate that you are a bit out of control, Snowball.

My post was perfectly reasonable, and quite succinct - that when you feel like it, you move the debate to scoring rates, and when that doesn't suit, you shift it back to absolute goals. It would be fine you making these 'separate' points if they weren't new approaches to your same argument and that's all you're doing, running around in circles trying to show from every conceivable angle, how your argument is correct. You have completely tied yourself in knots and to top it all off, are quite happy to throw personal insults around too, when all people are doing are disagreeing with you (which is allowed, you know!)

You responded to my point with a post that to be quite honest I have only skim read. It's just more rant, more meaningless stats. You'd be best retiring from this thread and considering how better to get your point across, because through 30 pages, you have utterly failed to do that succinctly or in a way that makes logical sense.

[Hoop Blah]

Blah blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sounds like a lovely bloke. That's what 6 Million gets you.

I definitely would prefer Long.

Apart from copy and paste from what looks like Wiki, you didn't really tell me what you think of him as a player. That was the point of the question.

I've no doubt that Nugents move to Pompey didn't work out to start with. In my opinion he joined the wrong club and he obviously didn't seem to take to it down there.

We've had plenty here with similar issues. Some have worked out pretty well and some haven't. I don't think you can really judge a players character on the back of joining a club like Pompey and not liking it because suddenly you're miles from home and find yourself way down the pecking order when you want to really launch your career.

For what it's worth, having players of his quality is what we probably need to get us out of this division. Long isn't at that standard, and neither are any other of our forwards. It's what will hold us back.

Your diversion to look at a list of some good, bad and appalling frowards records in this division doesn't do anything to hide how much of a prat you're making of yourself by the way.

[Royal Rother]

Snowball is great.

His manner and responses might wind otherwise pretty placid people up but his stats are, and always have been, a breath of fresh air on the Team Board.

I don't even care if they are seen as selective, skewed or otherwise inaccurate, the fact is that somebody looking at the game we love through prism specs and doing the research he does should be welcomed.