Harte Signs

[Snowball]

To be honest I thought he was more at fault for their first goal. Seemed to aimlessly ignore the player on the ball when he should have been closing them down or showing them down the wing. Although to be fair all our oher defenders were caught napping there too. The third goal was actually really well played by shiels so I'm not as disappointed by it.

Look Again. HRK had the player with the ball and was completely wrong-footed (I think HRK had a good game)
Harte had another player. Had he moved towards HRK's man, then his winger was free in space.

Even then there were two CBs to deal with the cross, but Zurab was in no-man's land and Mills simply failed

[SLAMMED]

I've come to the conclusion that you must be unemployed.

Get a job.

[cmonurz]

I'm pretty convinced Snowball is retired.

[Vision]

Just noticed Harte was in Team of the SEASON for last Season.

Just noticed Harte was in Team of the Week for Week ONE, this season. 09 August (Playing for Carlisle).
Just noticed Harte was in Team of the Week for Week TWO, this season. 16 August (Playing for Carlisle).

Harte was also in team of the Week for week 06, this season (Playing for Reading) (along with Kebe).
Harte was also in team of the Week for week 08, this season (Playing for Reading)
Harte was also in Team of the Week for Week 12, this season (Playing for Reading).


Harte has only been eligible 10 teams this season (two weekends when there were not Championship games) and yet has been in Team of the Week FIVE times.

He must be heading for Team of the Season at the moment.

Now, are you going to find excuses for each of those inclusions? He has scored 5 goals this season. Maybe his inclusions correspond with his goals...

Of cousre thats why he's included.

Defenders are generally picked based on whether they score because there is no other way really that his "performance" at left back can be compared with 23 other left backs that weekend.

The previous week we went to free-scoring Burnley, kept a clean sheet and not a single defender gets in team of the week. This week we concede 3 at home and a player who was at least partly culpable for 2 of them gets the nod because he scored.

I like Harte but these things are a bit of a joke really and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt as an indicator of a defender'sindividual performance.

[Hoop Blah]

I like Harte but these things are a bit of a joke really and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt as an indicator of a defender'sindividual performance.

'greed.

It's just the media's nod to the fantasy league playing generation who want to see some kind of recognition. Anyone that reads anything into it is a little naive really.

[Snowball]

Will prove to be a very good signing, imho.

SPOT ON, cmonurz!

Number of times player in Team of the Week, this Season

5 IAN HARTE 2/4 Appearances in League 1 TotW, 3/8 Appearances in Championship TotW

3 Paddy Kenny (3/12)

2 JIMMY KEBE (2/10)
2 Kyle Walker
2 John Ruddy
2 Neil Sullivan
2 Kyle Walker
2 David Wheater
2 Kaspars Gorkss
2 Gary Monk
2 Liam Lawrence
2 Jordon Mutch
2 Lewis McGugan
2 Adel Taarabt

1 JEM KARACAN
1 MATT MILLS

[Snowball]

Defenders are generally picked based on whether they score because there is no other way really that his "performance" at left back can be compared with 23 other left backs that weekend.
The previous week we went to free-scoring Burnley, kept a clean sheet and not a single defender gets in team of the week. This week we concede 3 at home and a player who was at least partly culpable for 2 of them gets the nod because he scored.

I like Harte but these things are a bit of a joke really and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt as an indicator of a defender's individual performance.

Matt Mills made Team of the Week for his goal (and incredible save, and general all-round defending at Leicester)
But then he scored this weekend and didn't make it into TotW, nor did Pearce the W/E he scored.

Defenders probably score a third of all goals. They don't all get in.

These things are "a bit of a joke", you say, but remarkably, a 33-Year-old,
too slow, snail-slow, will-get-us-relegated full-back makes the team 5 times out of 12
and that's coincidence, is it, random is it?

I think the TotW shows a very interesting spread, doesn't favour the top sides excessively,
even features players at the bottom of the league on days where their team has lost.

This week we concede 3 at home and a player who was at least partly culpable for 2 of them gets the nod because he scored.

How was he "partly culpable" for either of the first two goals? The first was HRK getting "done" and Mills defending poorly with Zurab in no man's land.

The second was a free-kick unluckily given away by Howard, far post and Mills fails again.

So we are down to partly responsible for ONE goal, but otherwise scored one,
took the free-kick for our first goal, made countless interceptions/headers/passes

[Snowball]

It's just the media's nod to the fantasy league playing generation who want to see some kind of recognition. Anyone that reads anything into it is a little naive really.

Hoop, name who, in your opinion, are the top 3-4-5-6 players in every position (playing regularly) in this season's Championship.

It's funny how these players end up taking up the better spots in the Actim Index and in Team of the Weeks

[Vision]

Defenders are generally picked based on whether they score because there is no other way really that his "performance" at left back can be compared with 23 other left backs that weekend.
The previous week we went to free-scoring Burnley, kept a clean sheet and not a single defender gets in team of the week. This week we concede 3 at home and a player who was at least partly culpable for 2 of them gets the nod because he scored.

I like Harte but these things are a bit of a joke really and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt as an indicator of a defender's individual performance.

Matt Mills made Team of the Week for his goal (and incredible save, and general all-round defending at Leicester)
But then he scored this weekend and didn't make it into TotW, nor did Pearce the W/E he scored.

Defenders probably score a third of all goals. They don't all get in.

These things are "a bit of a joke", you say, but remarkably, a 33-Year-old,
too slow, snail-slow, will-get-us-relegated full-back makes the team 5 times out of 12
and that's coincidence, is it, random is it?

I think the TotW shows a very interesting spread, doesn't favour the top sides excessively,
even features players at the bottom of the league on days where their team has lost.

This week we concede 3 at home and a player who was at least partly culpable for 2 of them gets the nod because he scored.

How was he "partly culpable" for either of the first two goals? The first was HRK getting "done" and Mills defending poorly with Zurab in no man's land.

The second was a free-kick unluckily given away by Howard, far post and Mills fails again.

So we are down to partly responsible for ONE goal, but otherwise scored one,
took the free-kick for our first goal, made countless interceptions/headers/passes

Calm down to a jog there fella.

He's "partly culpable" for the first goal because he makes no attempt to stop the cross coming in despite being in a position to do so.

He was part of a defence which conceded 3 goals at home.

However well he generally plays at left back, it will not be those performances that get him in but whether he scores or not.

You really need to stop being so defensive. No-ones hammering Harte over this just pointing out that given how its unlikely the people who judged this can in any way see all the performances to compare they tend to take the easy option and go with a goalscorer. Nothing wrong with that but even you have to accept its not really an indicator of how well he played as a left back compared to others.

[Hoop Blah]

This post was made by Snowball who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

I've never seen the point of this feature in the past, but I have to admit it has it's benefits.

[Snowball]

He's "partly culpable" for the first goal because he makes no attempt to stop the cross coming in despite being in a position to do so.

I disagree (no stats!). He is marking the winger and is 3-4 yards away as HRK gets rinsed. There is no way he can get across to the crosser, and if he tries he leaves his man free. HRK is the one who fails in this case, an Zurab is nowhere in particular. Even then, Mills fails to deal with the cross.

He was part of a defence which conceded 3 goals at home.

That in itself proves nothing at all. A fullback, a centre-back or a keeper can have a mare, the rest play 100% and we can be thrashed. That whole game it wasn't as if wingers were going past EITHER of our fullbacks, like Kebe does. The defence as a unit did OK and all three goals IMO, were down to individual errors. HRK-Mills (1), Mills (2) (Not a free-kick anyway so bad luck), and Harte-Mills and a bit of Feds for (3)

However well he generally plays at left back, it will not be those performances that get him in but whether he scores or not.

This is what frustrates me. You just SAY this with absolutely no evidence except that's what you think!!

No-ones hammering Harte over this just pointing out that given how its unlikely the people who judged this can in any way see all the
performances to compare they tend to take the easy option and go with a goalscorer. Nothing wrong with that but even you have to
accept its not really an indicator of how well he played as a left back compared to others.

(a) Many people in this thread "hammered Harte" that he's too old, too slow, is a snail, is useless, past it, will get us relegated.

(b) You provide absolutely no evidence that "its not really an indicator of how well he played as a left back compared to others." so I will reply

"Selection for Team of the Week is a good indicator of how well Harte played as a left back compared to others."


SEE? Pointless.

[cmonurz]

Why do you refuse to even entertain the thought that 24 left-backs were not thoroughly assessed for their performance at the weekend?

[Snowball]

Why do you refuse to even entertain the thought that 24 left-backs were not thoroughly assessed for their performance at the weekend?

Because it's not logical.

Because there is no evidence to suggest that is the case.



There IS however evidence to suggest that every single left-back IS thoroughly assessed every weekend.

1. They are all assessed for Actim Stats.

How are Actim Stats collected, by whom, who gets to see the stats that we don't see? They must exist

2. They can be, maybe all are, assessed by Pro-Zone

Does reading use Pro-Zone?

3. They are all eligible for the club's Man of the Match.

Do the people who create teams of the week maybe ask club's "Who were your three best players today? How about the opposition?"

4. They are all talked about, or can be talked about, on local radio, on club websites, local papers.

5. Many make news reports in national papers.

6. They can all be watched on club official sites, highlights, and sometimes whole games.

7. They can be individually followed by fans and managers (watching TWO left backs per game)

Example. Haven't we mentioned (assessed) full-backs who have kept Kebe quiet?

8. They appear on TV in occasional full games, and on The League round-up every weekend.

Example: Mills, great goal, great save at Leicester

9. Managers can be telephoned and asked which players did well. (That happens at Newport County.)

10. They may be watched by scouts, other managers, journalists, all probably on the same grape-vine.

For example, isn't Gareth Bale doing well at the moment? Did you actually watch him live at a live game?
For example, isn't Gail Clichy just slightly "suss" at the moment, whereas Sagna seems reliable?

[Vision]

I disagree (no stats!). He is marking the winger and is 3-4 yards away as HRK gets rinsed. There is no way he can get across to the crosser, and if he tries he leaves his man free. HRK is the one who fails in this case, an Zurab is nowhere in particular. Even then, Mills fails to deal with the cross.

Watch it again, he deliberately stands off because he's worried the bloke will go past him on the outside. He could have stopped that cross but he didn't.

This is what frustrates me. You just SAY this with absolutely no evidence except that's what you think!!

Its your own prejudices which are causing your frustration here.This season he has been picked on the 5 occasions that he has scored. Thats pretty solid evidence unless you think its coincidental and the games he scored also coincided with his best all round performances. [/quote]

(a) Many people in this thread "hammered Harte" that he's too old, too slow, is a snail, is useless, past it, will get us relegated.

(b) You provide absolutely no evidence that "its not really an indicator of how well he played as a left back compared to others." so I will reply

"Selection for Team of the Week is a good indicator of how well Harte played as a left back compared to others."


SEE? Pointless.

I said nobody's hammering Harte OVER THIS. Once again your instant defence of someone is blinkering you.

Its not a true indicator of "how well he played as a left back compared to others" because it is not possible for someone(s) to have seen all left back performances in order to make that comparison.

Its no big deal but if you want to delude yourself that individuals picked in the team of the week did actually give the best performances compared to others in their positions in any given week then fair play. Just dont expect us all of us to be so naive though.

[cmonurz]

Why do you refuse to even entertain the thought that 24 left-backs were not thoroughly assessed for their performance at the weekend?

Blah blah blah

Your post edited to save space and computer mouse wheels.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear - what makes you think that your 10 points are used when putting together 'team of the week'?

And moreover, why can't you just accept that some people thought that, whilst he scored a goal and put in some good crosses, Harte didn't have a great all-round game?

[Snowball]

Perhaps my point wasn't clear - what makes you think that your 10 points are used when putting together 'team of the week'?

I haven't said that these possible sources ARE being used.
I merely mention some LIKELY sources.

The opposite case (yours) merely asserts that (virtually) the players of the week are plucked out of the air.

The most likely answer is elementary. The official Championship site cites Actim Stats
so they probably do a very simple measure: for each position, who got the most Actim
points that week? Maybe they pick the top and have done; maybe they look at the top
three and ring around.

The point is, you and others act as if the picking of players for team of the week is virtually random
when in fact it is NOT, and it's fairly easy to prove it's not

And moreover, why can't you just accept that some people thought that, whilst he scored a goal and put in some good crosses, Harte didn't have a great all-round game?

I'm totally happy to accept that they think that and are wrong, no problem,
never said anything different, just like so many were wrong about Kebe,
and wrong suggesting we were "DOOMED" when Gylfi left.

I just find so many here knee-jerkers who deny facts. A defender who makes Team of the Week
five times in twelve, more than any other player in the league, who scores five in fifteen, who
has been a major part of three more goals (excluding what he may have done at Carlisle), who
has shown some EXQUISITE passing, who is part of a defence that, even with 2 x 3-goal concessions
is now part of the 3rd-best defence in the league, a team that's gone from just above the relegation
places to the play-offs... what more does a guy have to do?

[cmonurz]

For all the positives you have listed, there are negative aspects to his game, such as his lack of pace, questionable positioning at times, and times when he has stood off a tackle.

Now as you highlighted in this or another thread, I don't recall, I thought Harte would be a good signing and I stand by that. I always liked Harte in his Leeds days, as a left-back myself when I was playing at school and university, and I was pleased he signed for the club. But that doesn't make him immune from criticism.

You aren't wrong to suggest he has been a huge success, others are not wrong to question that (or the performances of Kebe or Long).

No 'wrong' just different opinions. I'm not 'denying facts' - I accept the 'facts' you have posted above re Harte but argue that they don't present the full picture.

[Snowball]

Fairy Nuff, "rz" but I think there's a built-in prejudice against Harte, and was from the start
because he cost 50K and was in a lower league, seemingly running down the clock on his career.

People keep talking about him being rinsed when he isn't, of him being responsible for goals-conceded
when he isn't. Saturday he was not remotely involved in one goal (the free-kick badly defended by Mills)
and at the very most only marginally involved in the one where HRK was wrong-footed and Mills seemed
to score an OG off his shoulder (Mills is making a few too many mistakes, IMO, but I like him overall)
and yes Harte made his error, but as someone else pointed out, the Doncaster player turned back and
Mills had time to close him down but didn't.

Even if we said that goal was totally Harte's fault (I disagree) that means it's 1 goal, another goal that
he's maybe 10% involved with, and the one at Bristol where he misjudged the flight of the ball after Griffin
failed to stop the cross. Even then, it was an opposition header back across goal that Mills might have
done better with (tho he looked like he was being fouled, some say)

So nine goals, six nothing to do with him at all, two marginally, one a lot. That suggests he is a good defender!

I would say though, that he looks scarily slow at times, but "somehow" he manages to cover this slowness with
positioning and nous. I got ripped a new ass-hole every time I played full-back. I hated it and I was the fastest
man on the pitch. I just couldn't hack the position, whereas right wing and CB were a piece of p!ss...

Harte doesn't leak goals. Not sure why. The DEFENCE often looks shaky to me, but the defence table doesn't lie,
we are up there just behind Cardiff and QPR, and that's what REALLY tells a story, not our eyeballs, but the
goals-against column. I worry about Mills' blind-spots, his indiscipline. I worry about Zurab's casualness and how
he seems to stroll around. I worry about Harte's obvious slowness. Only Griff makes me feel "safe".

But 14 goals conceded in 14 games, 9 goals in 10 of those games since we started bringing in defenders,
just THREE goals conceded in 8 of Harte's games, that's pretty amazing.

But Boro and Doncaster (and Leicester where we got away with it, I thought, brilliant tho' it was) suggest to me
that we are going to get at least one absolute TANKING this season

[Snowball]

There is definitely a "goal-effect" in Team of the Week AND in Actim Stats

i looked at all the Teams of the Week and goals totally dominate their thinking.

If a striker scores a hat-trick, he's in, every single time.

If a striker scores a brace, he's in, I think, every single time

Of the strikers picked, only ONCE was he a non-scorer (Jason Scotland)

As for defenders being chosen BECAUSE the scored a goal, I don't agree that this is the case.

17 44 38% Defence
34 44 77% Midfield
21 22 96% Strikers

There are 17 cases of a defender in TotW who DID score, but 27 who DIDN'T

There are plenty of cases where a defender DID score but did not make the TotW. Mills and Pearce one each for starters. You can't look at the fact that 38% of defenders picked happened to score. While, of course, their "credit" "increases" that week (and their Actim score) you have to look at ALL defenders who score and ask did they make the TotW and look at all defenders who DIDN'T score and see what percentage made TotW

You'd get a 2 x 2 table (this one, second line, is made up)

38% Scorers INcluded 62% Non-Scorers Included (Defenders IN the Team of the Week) Actual Data
25% Scorers excluded 75% Non-Scorers excluded (defenders NOT in Team of the Week) Made up example

It's virtually certain that scoring a goal makes it more likely a defender will get picked, but that is the same for midfielders and strikers, too.

But you'd need to know how many defenders who scored then DIDN'T make the TotW, and that would be a nightmare to gather.

If someone had the data, then a simple Chi-Squared test would show how significant the differences are.

[Hoop Blah]

I thought Harte had an ok game, but at the same time he gifted the opposition what should've been a match winning goal.

If that were me I'd be berating myself for a crucial mistake that turned an average performance into a bad one. His free kick was excellent though and probably pushed him back up to average.