Harte Signs

[Vision]

Surely its not difficult even for the most blinkered to accept the possibility that a midfielder/wide player would be having more shots/chances that are less clear cut than a striker. The majority of a strikers chances will fall in the penalty area. You dont have any stats for it but my memory tells me that Gylfi took a hell of a lot more shots from outside the area last season than Shane Long. The fact that both McAnuff and Kebe have had more attempts than Long this season might also bear that out.

I dont think Gylfi's figures are that much of an anomaly as they are almost identical to Charlie Adam who fulfilled the same role for Blackpool as Gylfi did for us. Lets be honest for about half of last season Gylfi was our main (only) attacking weapon, its not that much of a surprise that he was given licence to take pot shots from everywhere, hence his very high shot volume.

Being "wasteful" in front of goal isnt just confined to shots off target either. On Saturday at least one of Long's 1-on-1's wouldnt appear here because his control was so bad he drove himself wide and tried to pull the back rather than shooting.

[Snowball]

Surely its not difficult even for the most blinkered to accept the possibility that a midfielder/wide player would be having more shots/chances that are less clear cut than a striker. The majority of a strikers chances will fall in the penalty area. You dont have any stats for it but my memory tells me that Gylfi took a hell of a lot more shots from outside the area last season than Shane Long. The fact that both McAnuff and Kebe have had more attempts than Long this season might also bear that out.

I remember defending Kebe's goal-scoring record, arguing that (a) wingers didn't get so many chances and (b) they have a narrower angle and less goal to shoot at.

I was shouted down for saying that.

As for Gylfi not being anomalous. I had to search hard to find anybody with similar stats.

Two great players, Doyle & Kitson, never came near those stats.

Gylfi's miss stats are HORRENDOUS, and (as asked) I've taken out the penalties and he looks a lot worse (see next post)

[Vision]

Surely its not difficult even for the most blinkered to accept the possibility that a midfielder/wide player would be having more shots/chances that are less clear cut than a striker. The majority of a strikers chances will fall in the penalty area. You dont have any stats for it but my memory tells me that Gylfi took a hell of a lot more shots from outside the area last season than Shane Long. The fact that both McAnuff and Kebe have had more attempts than Long this season might also bear that out.

I remember defending Kebe's goal-scoring record, arguing that (a) wingers didn't get so many chances and (b) they have a narrower angle and less goal to shoot at.

I was shouted down for saying that.

As for Gylfi not being anomalous. I had to search hard to find anybody with similar stats.

Two great players, Doyle & Kitson, never came near those stats.

Gylfi's miss stats are HORRENDOUS, and (as asked) I've taken out the penalties and he looks a lot worse (see next post)

You really need to stop being so defensive and making everything You Vs The Board.

I suspect wingers do shoot from wider angles which may be a factor to their accuracy % in the same way that midfielders would generally have shots from further out than strikers. Its why comparing Gylfi's or Kebe's or Charlie Adam's accuracy to strikers like Doyle or Kitson or Long isn't really a fair comparison

There are other circumstances as to why I think Gylfi's figures aren't as anomalous as you think, such as him playing half the season as the main threat in a struggling team, wanting to make an impression in his first season as regular for us,youthful exuberence/confidence to try the spectacular. Often his long range shooting was woeful but on occasion he produced something extraordinary out of nothing. You cant really (in my opinion) compare the accuracy % of that to someone who does the vast majority of his shooting within the 12 yard area and come to any meaningful conclusion, other than the bloke that shoots from furthest out is less accurate than one that shoots from closer in.

I would like to know are these stats merely for shots, do headers count as well?

[Wycombe Royal]

However I'm sure you will just post 3 or 4 replies in quick succession posting more irrelevant repeated stats that don't actually answer the question (a question which does not require the use of any stats in order to answer it).

I would ask you for this weekend's lottery numbers but in hindsight, you were only stating the obvious.

....and Snowball didn't dissapoint.

[Snowball]

To try to make Harte look a lot worse, I was asked what the figures look like with penalties taken out.

Well, for Reading he is our most deadly player with pens, AND when you remove the penalty

But I've added last season (7 Pens) and Carlisle this season (1 pen) to try to make him look less brilliant.

9 Penalties scored in 75 Appearances Harte (No Misses I can find)
6 Penalties scored in 48 Appearances Gylfi (one miss)
6 Penalties scored, one miss Kitson
5 Penalties scored, no misses found, Doyle
6 Penalties scored Stephen Hunt
1 Penalties Scored, Noel Hunt
1 Penalties scored, no misses found but I'm sure Long has missed one, so put that in.
1 Penalties scored, Henry, no misses found
1 Penalties scored, Church, no misses found

Has Lita taken any pens? Didn't find any but feel sure he has.


007 003 004 0 002 Goals 3.50 Harte Reading Career (removing his penalty)
238 136 094 7 056 Goals 4.23 Kitson Reading Career
143 076 062 5 030 Goals 4.77 Long Reading Career
269 139 124 6 051 Goals 5.27 Doyle Reading Career
079 044 029 6 014 Goals 5.33 Hunt Reading Career
054 030 023 1 010 Goals 5.40 Rasiak Reading Career
077 039 034 4 014 Goals 5.50 Church Reading Career
082 035 039 8 014 Goals 5.86 Harte Last 1.3 Seasons
184 101 075 8 031 Goals 5.94 Lita Reading Career
127 069 056 2 018 Goals 7.06 Kebe Reading Career
136 067 061 8 015 Goals 9.07 Gylfi Reading Career

Note that though Harte's overall deadliness figures have dropped he is still WAY more deadly than Gylfi.

Note too that Gylfi has had plenty of goals from inside the box as he is the deep striker (Burnley, for example)
Some of Harte's shots are from 30 yards (eg at Preston). Take away his penalties and he's still more deadly
than Lita, Kebe and Gylfi, not far behind Church, Rasiak, Noel Hunt or Doyle.


Of course, removing penalties (I have scored Long as taking two, scoring one and missing one, feeling sure he
blasted a pen over the bar) improves Long's deadliness figures relative to the others.

[Snowball]

To try to make Harte look a lot worse, I was asked what the figures look like with penalties taken out.

Snowball please remove the penalties from those stats. "Deadliness" as you call it is distorted when a free shot from 12 yards is included.

Well, for Reading he is our most deadly player with pens, AND when you remove the penalty

But I've added last season (7 Pens) and Carlisle this season (1 pen) to try to make him look less brilliant.

9 Penalties scored in 75 Appearances Harte (No Misses I can find)
7 Penalties scored in 48 Appearances Gylfi (one miss) EDIT changed from 6/7 to 7/8
6 Penalties scored, one miss Kitson
5 Penalties scored, no misses found, Doyle
6 Penalties scored Stephen Hunt
1 Penalties Scored, Noel Hunt
1 Penalties scored, no misses found but I'm sure Long has missed one, so put that in.
1 Penalties scored, Henry, no misses found
1 Penalties scored, Church, no misses found

Has Lita taken any pens? Didn't find any but feel sure he has.


007 003 004 0 002 Goals 3.50 Harte Reading Career (removing his penalty)
238 136 094 7 056 Goals 4.23 Kitson Reading Career
143 076 062 5 030 Goals 4.77 Long Reading Career
269 139 124 6 051 Goals 5.27 Doyle Reading Career
079 044 029 6 014 Goals 5.33 Hunt Reading Career
054 030 023 1 010 Goals 5.40 Rasiak Reading Career
077 039 034 4 014 Goals 5.50 Church Reading Career
082 035 039 8 014 Goals 5.86 Harte Last 1.3 Seasons
184 101 075 8 031 Goals 5.94 Lita Reading Career
127 069 056 2 018 Goals 7.06 Kebe Reading Career
136 067 061 8 015 Goals 9.07 Gylfi Reading Career

Note that though Harte's overall deadliness figures have dropped he is still WAY more deadly than Gylfi.

Note too that Gylfi has had plenty of goals from inside the box as he is the deep striker (Burnley, for example)
Some of Harte's shots are from 30 yards (eg at Preston). Take away his penalties and he's still more deadly
than Lita, Kebe and Gylfi, not far behind Church, Rasiak, Noel Hunt or Doyle.


Of course, removing penalties (I have scored Long as taking two, scoring one and missing one, feeling sure he
blasted a pen over the bar) improves Long's deadliness figures relative to the others.

[Wycombe Royal]

So come on Snowball actually answer direct questions and stop posting another load of stats that prove nothing. This is why you have no credibility. I don't want stats I want a worded answer as to why you can't understand that you aren't comparing like for like. So what that Doyle and Kitson's stats are far better than Gylfi's. They are STRIKERS, Gylfi is a MIDFIELDER. The nature of the chances is DIFFERENT.

[Wycombe Royal]

To try to make Harte look a lot worse, I was asked what the figures look like with penalties taken out.
.

So come on then show where I said that I wanted you to do that to make Harte look worse. I think I will be waiting a long time. There isn't always an agenda behind what people say so top looking for one all the time.

[Vision]

Snowball thats all very nice but still not addressing/altering anything I said earlier.

Ok as you clearly dont want to accept or even acknowledge my points I'll give you a lovely fluffy Ian Harte opinion.

A few years ago when the world was rightly lauding Beckham's prowess as a free-kick taker I believed Ian Harte was actually better. Several years later there are still few(if any) better than him.

[Snowball]

....and Snowball didn't dissapoint.

WYCOMBE, YOU ASKED FOR THE FIGURES, AND COMPLAIN WHEN I GIVE YOU THEM?

Snowball please remove the penalties from those stats. "Deadliness" as you call it is distorted when a free shot from 12 yards is included.

IMO Gylfi was A STRIKER. He was a striker, playing in the hole.

He had more chances than Church and Long combined, more shots than Church and Long combined 131 compared with 107, 1.3 times as many. He got 20 goals, they got 21.

of course if you remove the penalties...

051 Shots 12 Goals = 1 goal every 4.25 shots KEBE
106 Shots 20 goals = 1 goal every 5.33 shots Church-Long = 1 in 5
124 Shots 14 Goals = 1 goal every 8.86 shots Gylfi

What is your excuse this time? Kebe is a winger!!

[Snowball]

To try to make Harte look a lot worse, I was asked what the figures look like with penalties taken out.
.

So come on then show where I said that I wanted you to do that to make Harte look worse. I think I will be waiting a long time. There isn't always an agenda behind what people say so top looking for one all the time.

Of COURSE there was no agenda.

It just HAPPENS that a lot of Harte's goals are penalties
and a deaf, dumb and blind donkey knows that his figures
will look worse when, what was it?, Oh, yes, "Deadliness" as you call it is distorted when a free shot from 12 yards is included.

Snowball please remove the penalties from those stats. "Deadliness" as you call it is distorted when a free shot from 12 yards is included.

Well, we removed penalties and this season Harte is miles clear of the pack. (With Gylfi plumb last.)

[Wycombe Royal]

....and Snowball didn't dissapoint.

WYCOMBE, YOU ASKED FOR THE FIGURES, AND COMPLAIN WHEN I GIVE YOU THEM?

In the post where I made the the remark I did not ask for any figures. You really are losing grip here.......

Snowball please remove the penalties from those stats. "Deadliness" as you call it is distorted when a free shot from 12 yards is included.

IMO Gylfi was A STRIKER.[/b]

And there lies the problem. Gylfi was NOT a striker. He was an attacking midfielder who even spent some time out on the wing. Next you'll be telling me that Andy Hughes was a striker as well..........

I'm actually beginning to think you need help. The world does not revolve around stats and people will have far better discussions with you if you stopped using them. You don't need stats to have a discussion. Can you form an opinion without stats? I actually think it is beyond you.

[Vision]

IMO Gylfi was A STRIKER. He was a striker, playing in the hole.

Well done for voicing an opinion but I think you're wrong. Also he played a lot of games under Rodgers wide left anyway.

I really don't need any of your irrelevant stats to tell that he took a huge amount of pot shots from outside the area because I watched him do it . Were these wasteful/woeful at times? yes they were, but equally he was pretty much the major threat for a struggling team for half a season.

Potshots from 25 yards are not "chances" in the way you are asserting.

PS. Do headers count as shots in these figures?

[Wycombe Royal]

OK, I'm going to make a request for some stats here. Snowball please break down the shots into:

a) Outside the box
b) Inside the area but outside the 6 yard box
c) Inside the 6 yard box

Obviously you won't have these stats, which is lucky for you, because they will back up what myself and Vision are trying to get across to you but you are unwilling to accept because of your blinkered view.

You will notice that I have not slagged off Harte or Long (I have in fact defended both), and neither have I hailed Gylfi as a superhero. My issue is with your statistics and their poor application (yes I have a statisitcs qualification and I am a qualified accountant and analyst).

[Snowball]

Surely its not difficult even for the most blinkered to accept the possibility that a midfielder/wide player would be having more shots/chances that are less clear cut than a striker. The majority of a strikers chances will fall in the penalty area. You dont have any stats for it but my memory tells me that Gylfi took a hell of a lot more shots from outside the area last season than Shane Long. The fact that both McAnuff and Kebe have had more attempts than Long this season might also bear that out.

Yes. And Kebe (a winger, I'm sure you'd agree) is over twice as deadly as Gylfi (penalties not included).

51 chances, 31 on target, 12 goals, 1 goal in 4.33 chances. (Kitson was 1 in 4.23, pens removed) (Gylfi is 1 in 9.07 pens removed)

I think if you check, virtually all of Gylfi's chances are central, MORE SO than a winger's.

A few are outside the box, of course, but they aren't at a narrow angle.

His two this year?

One set up by Long and Kebe, a lovely dink over the keeper. Total quality, but central and in the box.
The other v Scunthorpe. He beats one man and shoots from the edge of the D, so central

His shot at WBA, brilliant, but central.

[Vision]

Surely its not difficult even for the most blinkered to accept the possibility that a midfielder/wide player would be having more shots/chances that are less clear cut than a striker. The majority of a strikers chances will fall in the penalty area. You dont have any stats for it but my memory tells me that Gylfi took a hell of a lot more shots from outside the area last season than Shane Long. The fact that both McAnuff and Kebe have had more attempts than Long this season might also bear that out.

Yes. And Kebe (a winger, I'm sure you'd agree) is over twice as deadly as Gylfi (penalties not included).

51 chances, 31 on target, 12 goals, 1 goal in 4.33 chances. (Kitson was 1 in 4.23, pens removed) (Gylfi is 1 in 9.07 pens removed)

I think if you check, virtually all of Gylfi's chances are central, MORE SO than a winger's.

A few are outside the box, of course, but they aren't at a narrow angle.

His two this year?

One set up by Long and Kebe, a lovely dink over the keeper. Total quality, but central and in the box.
The other v Scunthorpe. He beats one man and shoots from the edge of the D, so central

His shot at WBA, brilliant, but central.

Kebe's career stats arent twice as deadly though are they (1 in 7 according to you) as you published earlier but now seem to want to ignore.

A lot of Gylfi's will be cutting in from the left (where he played a fair chunk of last season) on the angle of the penalty area so certainly not central within the widths of his goals. Central or not; shooting from 20 yards plus is not generally as clear cut a chance as from within 10-12 yards which is where most of the strikers get theres from.

There were an awful lot of potshots from 20 yards plus (central or on the angle) which skews his ratio but you seem to find it difficult to accept that for some reason.

PS Are headers counted as shots in your figures?

[Snowball]

There has been a suggestion that Gylfi wasn't tasked with scoring goals (he was the deep striker)
and that somehow his job was more difficult than, say, Kebe.

I thought I would actually LOOK at his goals, again.


08 goals inside ten yards
07 penalties (12 yards)
16 goals inside 14 yards

Gylfi's Goals.

What a pleasure to watch them all again. Great Player. But he scores striker's goals,
many close in, just a few from real distance. Here they all are. In order of closeness to goal.

Goal 07 - 03 Yards. CENTRAL v Plymouth. Header from point-blank range, middle of goals from McAnuff's cross. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 15 - 03 Yards. CENTRAL. v WBA Kebe shot blocked and easy side-foot in. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 18 - 04 Yards. CENTRAL v Peterboro Long bad miss hits bar, drops to Gylfi well inside six yard box. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 09 - 05 Yards. CENTRAL v Burnley. 88th minute. Inside 6-Yard box, shins the ball in.
Goal 22 - 06 Yards. CENTRAL v Leicester, dink over the keeper from edge of six-yard box. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 11 - 08 Yards. CENTRAL v Bristol City Header just outside the 6-yard box, central from McAnuff cross. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 03 - 09 Yards. CENTRAL v Blackpool. Mcanuff pass on floor misses everybody, falls to Gylfi's feet.
Goal 20 - 10 Yards. CENTRAL v Preston Kebe shot saved, drops to Gylfi just outside 6-yard box in line with goalpost. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html

Goal 12 - 12 yards. CENTRAL v Bristol City. PENALTY http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 13 - 12 Yards. CENTRAL v QPR PENALTY
Goal 14 - 12 Yards. CENTRAL v Leicester PEN ALTY
Goal 05 - 12 Yards. CENTRAL v PALACE PENALTY won by Rasiak. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 08 - 12 yards. CENTRAL v Liverpool. PENALTY won by Long
Goal 17 - 12 Yards. CENTRAL v Peterboro PENALTY http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 19 - 12 Yards. CENTRAL v Scunthorpe PENALTY after McAnuff brought down. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html

Goal 04 - 14 Yards. CENTRAL v Derby. Tabb beats 3 and slips it to Gylfi inside box. Gylfi steps forward, shoots low from 13-14 yards out. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html

Goal 21 - 20 Yards. CENTRAL v Scunthorpe, from the edge of the D. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 06 - 22 Yards. CENTRAL v Swansea. Free-Kick, just outside the penalty area. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 10 - 22 Yards. CENTRAL v WBA. 95th minute, pass from Church, sublime 22 yard curler
Goal 16 - 22 Yards. CENTRAL v Ipswich Very good free-kick from 22 yards, about 4 yards in from edge of penalty area v Ipswich http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 02 - 25 Yards. CENTRAL v Peterboro. Superb free-kick over the wall. http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html
Goal 01 - 30 Yards. CENTRAL v Burton Fabulous 30-odd yarder, shoots from in line with the right hand post: http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/player/ ... 36,00.html







Average distance 13 Yards, virtually all goals central. Widest being about 3-4 yards central from edge of penalty area.

[Wycombe Royal]

Average distance 13 Yards, virtually all goals central. Widest being about 3-4 yards central from edge of penalty area.

What about all his shots? You have excluded every shot he had where he didn't score and those are included in your deadliness stats. Yet again to fail to understand the point being made.

It is common sense that the closer to the goal the chance is the higher the likelihood that it will be scored and also on target.

[Snowball]

Average distance 13 Yards, virtually all goals central. Widest being about 3-4 yards central from edge of penalty area.

What about all his shots? You have excluded every shot he had where he didn't score and those are included in your deadliness stats. Yet again to fail to understand the point being made.

It is common sense that the closer to the goal the chance is the higher the likelihood that it will be scored and also on target.

Don't be daft!! I haven't "excluded" any shots. All I can do is look at his goals and see where
they came from. He scored a whole lot of STRIKER's goals, even you can't deny that.

15/22 goals from the penalty spot or closer, 16/22 goals from inside 14 yards.

Yes he scored three free-kicks from 22 yards and two very-long shots and one other long shot BUT HE MISSED THE REST.

Either he missed a shed-load INSIDE the box (ie very poor shooting)
OR
He missed a shed-load because he shot from great distance, obviously a poor choice because he only ever scored three goals that way.

[Royal With Cheese]

I'm confused.

I thought the central premis of football that it was a team game. Trying to extrapolate this out to give the appearance of individual statistics would seem at best slightly pointless (however interesting).

For example, you could be the best striker in the world, but unless you get the service you'll not score the goals. You could be the best goal keeper in the world but if your back four are shite, you're going to conceed a shed load of goals.

Am I making this too simplistic?