Back from the game - QPR

[RoyalBlue]

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Seriously though, we dont pay his wages, we pay to watch - how the player gets paid is neither here nor there. Gylfi pays Longs wages, BSkyB pays Longs wages, John Madejski pays Longs wages - but my £395 season ticket was paid for so that I could watch my team play...

Wow, any politician would be proud of that argument!!

Seriously though, if we all stopped paying £395 to watch our team play, I assure you that Madejski would tell us that the club could no longer afford the wage bill and that the manager would have to release some players!!

Our money is just as likely to be paying the wages as any other money! It all goes into the same pot, out of which some is taken to pay players wages.

I miss Bertrand too

Can't quite believe he prefers to play for Forest rather than us, but I guess it's just the way things turned out rather than any preferance on his part.

I'm sure he would have been more than happy to play for us had the chairman been prepared to take some money from the aforementioned pot to pay his wages!

[Snowball]

So if an actor makes a bad film, do they boo in the cinema aisles?

After all, "they pay his wages"

[Big Foot]

So if an actor makes a bad film, do they boo in the cinema aisles?

After all, "they pay his wages"

No point as the actor cannot hear them booing

The comparison alone is ridiculous really

[winchester_royal]

So if an actor makes a bad film, do they boo in the cinema aisles?

After all, "they pay his wages"

[T.R.O.L.I.]

So if an actor makes a bad film, do they boo in the cinema aisles?

After all, "they pay his wages"

What about if a recording artist sings out of tune at a concert?

Or do you not recognise that as it is not statistical?

[PistolPete]

Useless argument from Snowball, but the discussion was never about booing, it was about the right to reply, and Shane Long has the right to reply.

Just as Paddy Kenny has the right to celebrate in his own teams stadium...

[savage 4 england]

I think we should go back to 4-4-2.

The strongest point of our team is our wingers. If we have say Long and Hunt (both decent headers of the ball) then our wingers have something to aim for. Our central midfielders lack quality and should be used just as box-to-box. It would be nice if our full-backs could provide some support.

I do like the way Brian has set-up the team, but we just don't have players good enough at the moment.

[Svlad Cjelli]

I miss Bertrand too

Can't quite believe he prefers to play for Forest rather than us, but I guess it's just the way things turned out rather than any preferance on his part.

I'm sure he would have been more than happy to play for us had the chairman been prepared to take some money from the aforementioned pot to pay his wages!

Do you really believe that?!?

His loaning out is all about gaining experience playing at different clubs and under different systems - there's no way he'd do two seasons at the same club, so it's absolutely nothing do with money.

Still, if it fits your argument, why let facts get in the way......?

[savage 4 england]

Do you really believe that?!?

His loaning out is all about gaining experience playing at different clubs and under different systems - there's no way he'd do two seasons at the same club, so it's absolutely nothing do with money.

Still, if it fits your argument, why let facts get in the way......?

He was on loan at Norwich 2 seasons in a row..

[Wimb]

Back to wimb's earlier tome,one point I would take issue with you concerns your view that Brian is building a team.
Do you really feel that is happening?
Within the next couple of years Griff and Harte (or in Harte's case too old already) will be too old as will Bryn and Ivar.
McAnuff and Howard will have passed 30 and Kish may well have gone back to his parent club.
IMHO there are big question marks about the likes of HRK,Church,Antonio,Cummings and Pearce and Hunt always seems to be injured.

At the moment I feel that the team is patched up rather than being built and although there has to be an element of experienced players combined with those in their prime and those that have youthful zest I don't feel that we have enough of the latter two categories other than McAnuff and Jem.
I think most people have already written this season off in terms of promotion but those that are over-optimistic might have become more realistic after yesterday's performance and come to terms with the fact that 6th position was just a temporary period of over-achievement.

VM, I do really believe that Brian's trying to build a team and has already started laying the foundations of a team that could challenge in a couple of years.

I see where you're coming from about the more experienced players, but I think they have their purpose now, as the likes of Parkinson, Williams, Makin, Brown, Gunnar (v05/06) did in years past.

I don't think Ivar and Gunnar will be here next year, but are they really playing big roles now? injuries look like they may be catching up with both of them and Ivar even now he's fit seems 4th choice centre back, perhaps even 5th with Harte here. I also think that the depth we now have means that Gunnar's versatility is something we could live without to save money on wages.

It's hard to argue with the belief that there are areas of this team that are 'patched up' right now but there's also strong signs that we've got some good medium and long term prospects in a a number of key positions. We have an abundance of talent in the Goalkeeping department, Mills has moments of madness too but the potential for growth is there, Kizi maybe on loan now but is a free agent at the end of the year and with Ivar coming off the books it's not totally unreasonable to suspect we'll sign him. He's also not a defender who relies on pace either so I don't think he'll age as quick or be as susceptible to injury as a Sonko for example. I don't think Howard's going to be here beyond this season but Tabb and Jem have both proved they are worthy of a place in a top half side. Tabb's form in the second half of last season and Jem's in patches this year have both been very positive and suggest maybe higher ceilings for each of them. Kebe is under contract here for another 18 months and has shown his talents already and while not in the best vein of form Jobi is still a quality player (and as a side note it might be interesting, based on earlier fill in performances, if he moves to right back in the next 18 months or so, certainly worked for Murts) and both HRK and Antonio have hinted at being good players in the future.

The big question marks remain over our strikers, all three 'main' strikers have blown hot and cold throughout their time here and this season should hopefully shed some more light on who long term will take us forward. Even so just because a player may not be good enough to lead the line you're always going to need good squad players and all three have at least shown they are an option off the bench.

In terms of 'building' in general, I think it's subjective really based on how long you're prepared to wait and think the 'window' is for a particular group. I've said elsewhere that I think a team has a 3-4 season cycle before even the key parts begin to get restless so on that basis I'd be hoping to be in QPR's type of form by this time in 2012.

Again for comparison (though it's very hard to compare era's etc) compare the lineup in November 2003 to our title winning squad.

Hahnemann, Murty, Ingimarsson, Newman, Shorey, Hughes, Sidwell, Harper (Watson 81), Salako (Henderson 79), Goater (Savage 74), Forster. Subs not used: Mackie, Young.

From that 16, only 6 would play any part in the promotion winning squad and right now I think Federici/McCarthy, Mills, Kizi, Armstrong (big IF fit) Karacan, Kebe, McAnuff and maybe Church/Long could easily be part of a title winning squad. Even others such as, Pearce, Cummings, HRK, Taylor shouldn't be written off just yet (look at how Tyson, Cox and Henderson all panned out after fairly average reviews in their time here)
There's obviously question marks and we'd be banking on progression and a bit of luck but there's strong reasons to back what Brian's doing right now. He's going to have to make some good signings no doubt about it but he's helped provide us with good players for the last ten years so here's to hoping for more.

[under the tin]

Wimb,
Some good, positive, points made there, particularly with regard to the comparison Vs. the 2003 line-up.

The trouble is, comparisons of that sort with today's RFC do not factor in the sea change in attitude of the chairman, owing to the financial constraints the recession has put on his business empire, and the galling experience of seeing most of the prem windfall money being gobbled up in player wages. I don't think that Floyd is the only one who has lost a little love for the cause: I think that JM, to a certain extent, feels that way too.

Forgive the pun, but RFC today is a different ball game altogether.
This is not personal criticism of the man, but then we had a chairman who reputedly drove to Bristol personally, with a cheque book in his pocket to secure the services of Lita, who bankrolled the puchase of Kitson, etc,etc.
Today's chairman, in the same situation, will certainly not bankroll such deals, so the only way these could have happened, with today's mentality, would probably have involved the sale of a Sidwell/Murty/Harper/etc. to raise the funds internally.

Brian has got a horse trading job here. I think that Gylfi-like sacrifices are going to become more and more the norm, where our gems will be traded off in order to strengthen elsewhere within the squad.
How this new style of building pans out remains to be seen, but I just hope that posterity remembers Brian fondly, because I don't think that any Reading manager has ever had such tough fiscal constraints to work within.

[Wimb]

Wimb,
Some good, positive, points made there, particularly with regard to the comparison Vs. the 2003 line-up.

The trouble is, comparisons of that sort with today's RFC do not factor in the sea change in attitude of the chairman, owing to the financial constraints the recession has put on his business empire, and the galling experience of seeing most of the prem windfall money being gobbled up in player wages. I don't think that Floyd is the only one who has lost a little love for the cause: I think that JM, to a certain extent, feels that way too.

Forgive the pun, but RFC today is a different ball game altogether.
This is not personal criticism of the man, but then we had a chairman who reputedly drove to Bristol personally, with a cheque book in his pocket to secure the services of Lita, who bankrolled the puchase of Kitson, etc,etc.
Today's chairman, in the same situation, will certainly not bankroll such deals, so the only way these could have happened, with today's mentality, would probably have involved the sale of a Sidwell/Murty/Harper/etc. to raise the funds internally.

Brian has got a horse trading job here. I think that Gylfi-like sacrifices are going to become more and more the norm, where our gems will be traded off in order to strengthen elsewhere within the squad.
How this new style of building pans out remains to be seen, but I just hope that posterity remembers Brian fondly, because I don't think that any Reading manager has ever had such tough fiscal constraints to work within.

Very valid points 'tin and I suppose I hadn't factored in Madejski's hunger or lack thereof. My only hope is that he comes back refreshed as he's gone through cycles of backing/pulling back before. I seem to remember around the ITV digital/Burns blowout era he pulled back a bit, left the country but came back hungry etc. Obviously a different time and the same passion might well have been permanently doused by the realities of the Premier League, but I still think he'll steer the ship well and like to think that the Sig was the last of the cloth cutting. Sadly only time will tell and if I'm wrong then the future may not be so bright after all.

[Schards#2]

Wimb,
Some good, positive, points made there, particularly with regard to the comparison Vs. the 2003 line-up.

The trouble is, comparisons of that sort with today's RFC do not factor in the sea change in attitude of the chairman, owing to the financial constraints the recession has put on his business empire, and the galling experience of seeing most of the prem windfall money being gobbled up in player wages. I don't think that Floyd is the only one who has lost a little love for the cause: I think that JM, to a certain extent, feels that way too.

Forgive the pun, but RFC today is a different ball game altogether.
This is not personal criticism of the man, but then we had a chairman who reputedly drove to Bristol personally, with a cheque book in his pocket to secure the services of Lita, who bankrolled the puchase of Kitson, etc,etc.
Today's chairman, in the same situation, will certainly not bankroll such deals, so the only way these could have happened, with today's mentality, would probably have involved the sale of a Sidwell/Murty/Harper/etc. to raise the funds internally.

Brian has got a horse trading job here. I think that Gylfi-like sacrifices are going to become more and more the norm, where our gems will be traded off in order to strengthen elsewhere within the squad.
How this new style of building pans out remains to be seen, but I just hope that posterity remembers Brian fondly, because I don't think that any Reading manager has ever had such tough fiscal constraints to work within.

Sadly, that isn't building, it's maintenance.

Even more sadly, what is happening is much worse, our gems are sold off and there is little or no trade off in terms of squad strengthening.

Systematically, the squad gets weaker and weaker with every transfer window as the best players are sold to be replaced by cheaper alternatives, the end result is inevitable. If this does not change, Mcdermott and/or his successor will do will to keep this club in this division in 4 years time. In the long term, you cannot defy gravity.

[Wycombe Royal]

Systematically, the squad gets weaker and weaker with every transfer window as the best players are sold to be replaced by cheaper alternatives, the end result is inevitable. If this does not change, Mcdermott and/or his successor will do will to keep this club in this division in 4 years time. In the long term, you cannot defy gravity.

I know this is only a small point but how on earth were going to do anything other than replace Doyle, Kitson, Hunt, Sigurdsson, etc with cheaper alternatives?

[Schards#2]

Systematically, the squad gets weaker and weaker with every transfer window as the best players are sold to be replaced by cheaper alternatives, the end result is inevitable. If this does not change, Mcdermott and/or his successor will do will to keep this club in this division in 4 years time. In the long term, you cannot defy gravity.

I know this is only a small point but how on earth were going to do anything other than replace Doyle, Kitson, Hunt, Sigurdsson, etc with cheaper alternatives?

I know it's a radical thought but some teams don't routinely sell every player who can demand a fee.

Or if they do, reinvest more than 1% of the proceeds in replacements.

[Wycombe Royal]

Systematically, the squad gets weaker and weaker with every transfer window as the best players are sold to be replaced by cheaper alternatives, the end result is inevitable. If this does not change, Mcdermott and/or his successor will do will to keep this club in this division in 4 years time. In the long term, you cannot defy gravity.

I know this is only a small point but how on earth were going to do anything other than replace Doyle, Kitson, Hunt, Sigurdsson, etc with cheaper alternatives?

I know it's a radical thought but some teams don't routinely sell every player who can demand a fee.

Maybe not, but if the player wants to leave then why hold on to them? Surely the best course of action is to sell them for as much money as you can possibly get? Which even the harshest critic of this club cannot deny that they have done.....

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

JM, with help from those around made his main mistakes during the two years in the Prem, paying way too much in wages to players that were not worth it. And bringing in players from abroad that had no experience in the Prem. That was how the club decided to go about it, and you cannot really blame them, after all they had no experience of the Premier League.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Maybe not, but if the player wants to leave then why hold on to them? Surely the best course of action is to sell them for as much money as you can possibly get? Which even the harshest critic of this club cannot deny that they have done.....

And that was one mistake JM and SC made, S Hunt seemed to want to leave, from about half way through the first Premier League season, I said at the time he should go, as his head was turned, instead they upped his wages, mistake IMHO..

S Hunt relegated twice from the Prem, can this be relegation no 3?

[under the tin]

Systematically, the squad gets weaker and weaker with every transfer window as the best players are sold to be replaced by cheaper alternatives, the end result is inevitable. If this does not change, Mcdermott and/or his successor will do will to keep this club in this division in 4 years time. In the long term, you cannot defy gravity.

I know it's a radical thought but some teams don't routinely sell every player who can demand a fee.

Maybe not, but if the player wants to leave then why hold on to them? Surely the best course of action is to sell them for as much money as you can possibly get? Which even the harshest critic of this club cannot deny that they have done.....[/quote]

You're both kind of right there.
Perhaps it is worthy of consideration to look at the motives behind why a player wants to leave.
Players are, to a large extent, badge kissing mercenaries, who look after their personal goals first and foremost.
Better wages, chances of winning silverware, playing at a higher level trumps the Ace of loyalty to a club, and RFC can only do one thing to mitigate these, and that is to provide the inward investment that assures said players that those goals are achievable here.
Once players form the opinion that the club can't do that, then the inevitable brain drain of talent ensues.
You can't buck the natural order of things, and there exist certain clubs who can prise away players from whoever they like, but, unless a top 6 club had come in for them, I remain convinced that the likes of Doyle, Kitson, Shorey, etc., would still be Reading assets today, were we still a Prem club.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Good point UTT, but at some point players may feel that any move will do, and see it as a stepping stone Shorey would have loved to go to West Ham, but they never came in for him, so he took what was on offer from Villa. Money was the factor that most care about, we somehow needed to be a modern day Wimbledon, offering players from lower down the chance to play in the highest level, but not on the same silly wages that the bigger clubs offer.