Back from the game - Cardiff City

[Elm Park Old Boy]

So,what about the older players?.

Wasn't talking about them. What's your point?

By the same premis they can only get worse.

Er, no. What premise? If I say young players can and do (not necessarily always and to the same degree) get better over time, is that the same thing as saying older players get worse in inverse proportion? I don't think so.

BTW not ALL young players improve with age

I never said they did.

at nearly 24 I would argue that in footballing terms Long is no longer young.

That's debatable, but read what I wrote. I was talking more about how Long has developed, and about how our younger players may still develop.

I will however go out on a limb and predict that Church,Robson-Kanu,Antonio,Bignall and Pearce will never be much cop

OK. Brave man. History will tell.

[Snowball]

Trouble is, saying "Will not be much cop" is very, very vague and has a few thousand get-out clauses

Could you not be a TAD more specific?

Will Church make the grade of say, average Championship striker, play in that league for say, at least 4 years, get 6-15 goals a season? Do you mean, by "will not be much cop" that he won't be transferred into the Premiership (or get there with reading) and score, say 4-9 goals in a Premiership season?

For me, to be clear, I'd say any player that can get 10+ goals average in 2 or more seasons is "enough cop". Church, at 21 (born Dec 12 1988, Ian) is on 15 goals in 1.3 seasons, on target for 21 goals in 2 seasons, the second season finishing approximately May 8th 2011* (this is for Ian) when Church will be still under 22 years and 5 months old, and anyone who thinks that's POOR must be living with Messi's Mum.


* Unless, (for Ian) we reach the play-offs...

[PieEater]

For me the jury is still out with Church. He's not quick, tall, or particularly skillful. A lot of his goals have been from being in the right place at the right time, from which you'd think he's got good positional instinct, but to me he doesn't seem to be very aware or react quickly enough to situations. Too often he makes the wrong decisions in possession.

His goal stats aren't bad, but how many great chances has he converted compared to how many he's fluffed? How many has he made for himself?

[Victor Meldrew]

Trouble is, saying "Will not be much cop" is very, very vague and has a few thousand get-out clauses

Could you not be a TAD more specific?

Will Church make the grade of say, average Championship striker, play in that league for say, at least 4 years, get 6-15 goals a season? Do you mean, by "will not be much cop" that he won't be transferred into the Premiership (or get there with reading) and score, say 4-9 goals in a Premiership season?

For me, to be clear, I'd say any player that can get 10+ goals average in 2 or more seasons is "enough cop". Church, at 21 (born Dec 12 1988, Ian) is on 15 goals in 1.3 seasons, on target for 21 goals in 2 seasons, the second season finishing approximately May 8th 2011* (this is for Ian) when Church will be still under 22 years and 5 months old, and anyone who thinks that's POOR must be living with Messi's Mum.


* Unless, (for Ian) we reach the play-offs...

Sorry but unlike you I am not Mystic Meg.
It is an OPINION (the emphasis mirrors your feelings of anger when you feel that somebody else just does not get it).
This is a discussion board and sometimes (if not always) you just don't seem to understand that.

[Snowball]

For me the jury is still out with Church. He's not quick, tall, or particularly skillful. A lot of his goals have been from being in the right place at the right time, from which you'd think he's got good positional instinct, but to me he doesn't seem to be very aware or react quickly enough to situations. Too often he makes the wrong decisions in possession.

His goal stats aren't bad, but how many great chances has he converted compared to how many he's fluffed? How many has he made for himself?

My "instincts" about Churchy would not be dissimilar to yours. I am convinced, even when I read his stats (that say different) that he misses lots of chances.

He doesn't

30 ON 29 Off 04 Hit Woodwork 2009-10
11 ON 09 Off 00 Hit Woodwork 2010-11

43-42 a fraction better than 50% on target, yet IN MY HEAD I think of Church as missing loads of clear-cut chances.

Personally I don't think of him as a clinical finisher, and yes he's had a fair few that seem to have gone in off him more than been "scored"... the deflection of Karacan's shot, the did-he-shoot or mean to pass at Burnley, the goal v Liverpool.

But players who have goals go in off them are priceless IMO. They are just "there". That's what John Aldridge was like at Newport. I don't think there was a part of his body he didn't score with (Ian, I mean external parts, and it's just a saying, anyway)

if he gets some more starts, and regular 15 minute subs, he should make double figures this season. That is pretty good for a (relative) kid (I don't mean a juvenile goat, Ian) in a middling, maybe slightly better side.

My worry is Church just seems the same old Church, whereas Long is definitely growing as a player, becoming much better at playing in others etc (when the support is there)... if HE (Longy, yes I know his name is LONG, Ian) can be persuaded to stay more central more often, and be selfish occasionally, IF he can get to 15 goals a season, then we'll have a special player on our hands.

[Snowball]

Sorry but unlike you I am not Mystic Meg.
It is an OPINION (the emphasis mirrors your feelings of anger when you feel that somebody else just does not get it).
This is a discussion board and sometimes (if not always) you just don't seem to understand that.

Nothing to do with mystic-megness it's to do with being able to say something which covers just about all the bases.

What DO you mean, by not-much-cop? That's a reasonab;e question isn't it?

Do you mean "not Premiership top six"
Not Premiership
Not a decent Championship-Level player
No better than League 1
League 2
Conference?

I have NO IDEA what you mean by "not much cop", so just give us a hint.

[Victor Meldrew]

So,what about the older players?.

Wasn't talking about them. What's your point?

By the same premis they can only get worse.

Er, no. What premise? If I say young players can and do (not necessarily always and to the same degree) get better over time, is that the same thing as saying older players get worse in inverse proportion? I don't think so.

BTW not ALL young players improve with age

I never said they did.

at nearly 24 I would argue that in footballing terms Long is no longer young.

That's debatable, but read what I wrote. I was talking more about how Long has developed, and about how our younger players may still develop.

I will however go out on a limb and predict that Church,Robson-Kanu,Antonio,Bignall and Pearce will never be much cop

OK. Brave man. History will tell.

I think if you read the response to yours the conclusion is the same-we are nearly all guilty of judging players too early.
BTW I disagree about Long,I don't think he has improved and he isn't young.
Also the point was raised about older players because if we hope that young players will improve I do think that is directly opposite to older players getting worse,e.g there is no way thar Ivar can get better than he was as a Premiership and international footballer whereas HRK could improve from the player he now is who seems to have great difficulty in sorting his feet out.

As ever it is about opinions and as Hoop Blah said there are many examples in our fairly recent history of overhyped players who have not lived up to the hype-let us hope that our much vaunted Academy produces more players capable of making the first team but after this crop of 21/22 year olds there does not yet appear to be many 17-21 year olds other than Jake Taylor anywhere near ready to step up.

[PEARCEY]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

[Ian Royal]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

Not sure Curo got a really fair crack of the whip with us in the Champ. He started absolutely on fire (6 in the first 5) but then went on a bit of a barren run and ended up being frozen out by Pardew. IIRC that is.

[winchester_royal]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

Agree 100%. Our fanbase gets on certain players' backs (Church, Long, Howard etc.) way too easily.

[Snowball]

Church is doing fine

Doyle was 144 ON-120 OFF 54.55% on target, a little bit better, but not much better than Church

In terms of goals Church is 15 from 33 (25) a goal every 222 minutes, or 2.5 games

Doyle was 55 in 145 (17) a goal every 242 minutes or 2.69 games


Doyle, born 18 September 1983 was six weeks off his 22nd birthday when he first played for RFC
and was 20 days off his 22nd birthday when he scored his first Reading goal

Church, born December 12th 1988 is four weeks off his 22nd birthday and has scored 15 Championship goals already

Doyle scored his 15th RFC Championship goal on 17 Feb 2006 aged 22 Years 152 Days

Church scored his 15th RFC Championship goal on October 30th 2010 aged 21 Years 323 Days

Basically, every goal Church gets from now until the end of this season will put him that many goals ahead of Doyle at the same age.

[Snowball]

Put separately for clarity. (This surprises me, Church v Doyle looks impressive, so young)

Doyle scored his 15th RFC Championship goal on 17 Feb 2006 aged 22 Years 152 Days

Church scored his 15th RFC Championship goal on October 30th 2010 aged 21 Years 323 Days

194 Days (the rest of this season) to get some more goals



Basically, this means that every goal Church gets from now until the end of this season will put him that many goals ahead of Doyle at the same age.


And NO I am not saying Simon Church IS better than Doyle,
or that he is better than Doyle was aged 20-21, OR he will
be better than Doyle and win the World Cup for Wales.


I am saying one thing (two things)

1. Church is by far the better, miles better, in terms SOLELY of goals-scored in the Championship, than Doyle was at the same ages.

2. Church age-for-age, has more promise. Whether that will be fulfilled is another thing.

[PEARCEY]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

Not sure Curo got a really fair crack of the whip with us in the Champ. He started absolutely on fire (6 in the first 5) but then went on a bit of a barren run and ended up being frozen out by Pardew. IIRC that is.

Yes he was frozen out because he couldn't score for love nor money so Pards reverted to playing Fozzy up-front on his own. As you know when Fozzy got injured in the first leg play-off semi-final against Wolves we were well and truly fecked.....having to rely on Henderson and Curo for goals..we all knew they wouldn't score in the second-leg. We were totally reliant on Fozzy in the end. I think we would all pretty much accept that was the case.
I have to say Ian, Curo was pretty hopeless whenever he played in the second-half of that season and he never really established himself at this level with us or anybody else. If he was good enough I'm sure he would have done. A terrific lower league player but at a higher level nowhere near as good.

[Snowball]

Memory got it wrong, Church started MUCH younger

[Victor Meldrew]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

Nothing to do with him being Welsh eh?
When I saw Church playing up front for Wales U21s two years ago I liked what I saw,a player with very good movement and with an eye for goal.
Since then in men's football he appears to me a bit timid and unfortunately for a striker he can't head a ball.
Hopefully he will go on to great things for Reading's sake but I have real reservations about him.
As ever it's just an opinion.
The bit about Cureton is that I think a lot us are dismayed that none of Long,Hunt and Church are predators nor are they clinical in their finishing whereas the likes of Quinn,Cureton and Senior were.

[cmonurz]

I am saying one thing (two things)

1. Church is by far the better, miles better, in terms SOLELY of goals-scored in the Championship, than Doyle was at the same ages.

2. Church age-for-age, has more promise. Whether that will be fulfilled is another thing.

....based purely on goals scored, you mean.

For me Doyle looked far the better all-round player when he join the club compared to Church now. I'd take Doyle in his first weeks at the club over Church now, any day.

[PEARCEY]

I don't know what it is some of you have against Simon Church. Did Kevin Doyle or Dave Kitson never miss their share of sitters? Of course they friggin did.
The biggest joke is some even long for someone like Jamie Cureton in his prime instead of our current strikers chosing to ignore the fact that at Championship level for us he wasn't up to it and barely bloody scored.
Give Church a break FFS.

Nothing to do with him being Welsh eh?
When I saw Church playing up front for Wales U21s two years ago I liked what I saw,a player with very good movement and with an eye for goal.
Since then in men's football he appears to me a bit timid and unfortunately for a striker he can't head a ball.
Hopefully he will go on to great things for Reading's sake but I have real reservations about him.
As ever it's just an opinion.


The bit about Cureton is that I think a lot us are dismayed that none of Long,Hunt and Church are predators nor are they clinical in their finishing whereas the likes of Quinn,Cureton and Senior were.

I'm shocked you could bring nationality into it....but it might have a tiny bit to do with it After all Wales have gifted Reading some great players and crowd favourites like Paul Bodin,Michael Meaker and John Oster.
Part of the reason why I defend him though is that he is not established in the team yet and is perpetually in and out of the side. He remains young and is still learning. I also think he has a good attitude.If he hasn't progressed two years down the line fair enough but lets give him the chance.
Re Curo.He was a predator but he lost his way so badly with us and totally lacked confidence in the end.

[Snowball]

Born 18-09-1983 DOYLE
Born 12-12-1988 CHURCH

First UK Game

20-10-2007 Age 18 Years 312 Days CHURCH (Church 3 Years and 5 Days Younger than Doyle)
06-08-2005 Age 21 Years 317 Days DOYLE

First Reading FC Game

12-05-2009 Age 20 Years 153 Days CHURCH (Church ONE Year and 164 Days Younger than Doyle)
06-08-2005 Age 21 Years 317 Days DOYLE

First Competitive UK Goal

27-10-2007 Age 18 Years 319 Days CHURCH (Church 3 Years and 26 Days Younger than Doyle)
29-08-2005 Age 21 Years 345 Days DOYLE

First Reading FC Goal

19-09-2009 Age 20 Years 281 Days CHURCH (Church 1 Year and 64 Days younger than Doyle)
29-08-2005 Age 21 Years 345 Days DOYLE

5th RFC Goal

09-12-2009 Age 20 Years 362 Days CHURCH (Church 1 Year and 103 Days younger than Doyle)
22-11-2005 Age 22 Years 065 Days DOYLE

10th RFC Goal

27-02-2010 Age 21 Years 077 Days CHURCH (Church 1 Year and 24 Days younger than Doyle)
28-12-2005 Age 22 Years 101 Days DOYLE

15th RFC Goal

30-10-2010 Age 21 Years 322 Days CHURCH (Church 194 Days younger than Doyle)
17-02-2006 Age 22 Years 151 Days DOYLE

20th UK Domestic Goal

30-10-2010 Age 21 Years 322 Days CHURCH (Church 1 Year 17 Days younger than Doyle)
23-08-2006 Age 22 Years 339 Days DOYLE

[cmonurz]

I'd still take Doyle in his first weeks at the club over Church now.

[Snowball]

Fairy Nuff, "rz" but understand that Church TODAY is 21 Years 336 Days old
just 19 days older today than when Doyle first played for Reading

So the comparison, age-for-age is from today

Here is Doyle's start

09 START Plymouth
07 SUB Brighton
28 SUB Millwall
71 START Swansea Lge Cup
02 SUB Watford
051 SUB Burnley (Scored First Goal)