Long - Time to go.

[BR2]

bunch of oxf*rd gaybos


SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH

Don't interfere,just go away and play with somebody else.
Snowball,
Earlier you said "In Long's case we are talking about six seasons of steady and clear improvement".
Er....3 years ago he scored goals in The Premiership and now he is NOT scoring goals at a lower level-hardly clear improvement for a striker??

In talking of Holt it was a random example of a Championship striker and the sort that we might have rather than an endorsement of the player himself -he is doing quite well and better than all of ours.

You ask why a Championship club didn't come in for him-he has got there with Norwich and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he could be playing in the Premier League next season with Norwich.

Meanwhile our club waits and waits and...........................the season will be over.

[Snowball]

Agreed, but he's nearer 30 than 29 and has played just 19 games in the CCC for his 7 goals

Prior to yesterday his record was 18 for 4




Someone getting 18 months out of him will do very well

[handbags_harris]

.

The point is we judge players on extended runs of games. Not 5 or ten but seasons.

Ok, I'll judge Shane on what I've seen of him, which happens to be all but circa-100 minutes of his RFC career - is that an extended run of games that's long enough for you Snowy?

Judgement laid down by h_h: He's half decent at best due to the fact that he doesn't score enough, doesn't show enough intelligence in movement, doesn't get into goalscoring positions often enough, has poor technique with the ball at his feet resulting in touches that go further than I can kick a ball, holds the ball up poorly due to his touch, and generally just doesn't cut the mustard. On the plus side: his strength in the air is an asset but that said, how many of his goals are from headers? Given our strength is to attack from the flanks and get crosses in the box, and that Long's joint-major strength along with his pace is his aerial ability how often do you see Long launching himself at a ball and scoring a header?

05/06
Derby County 2-2 - two yarder from a vertically dropping ball.

06/07
Wigan Athletic 3-2 - one yarder from an almost vertically dropping ball.

07/08
None.

08/09
Norwich City 2-0 - near post four yarder after a good run across the defender.
Southampton 1-1 - six yarder bravely getting on the end of a Duberry header across goal before the 'keeper.
Charlton Athletic 2-2 - eight yarder near post from a Jay Tabb inswinging corner after getting a run on the defender.
Norwich City 2-0 - six yarder at the far post after getting ahead of his marker and a six yarder at the far post after leaping like a salmon.

09/10
Liverpool 2-1 - six yard flick after getting across the defenders.
Doncaster Rovers 2-1 - Eight yarder off the back of his head central to goal.
Aston Villa 2-4 - far post two yarder after a Matt Mills near post flick.

Nine goals from his head - roughly a third of his goals which isn't a bad ratio in all fairness but for a number one striker to be so goal shy is one of the major reasons why we're drawing games, not winning at the moment.

[Svlad Cjelli]

Can I add to Handbag's analysis the incident away at Brum in the last PL season when in the very last minute the ball fell to SL about 6 yards out and with a nearly open goal he tried to do a scissors-kick and missed.

I'm convinced if he'd tried to head it, or even just try to play it normally, he'd almost certainly have scored - but the fact that in such a crucial moment of such a critical game he decided to try something so ambitious says something about his judgement under pressure.

Let's just face the obvious - Shane Long is a pretty good creator, but he is not a natural-born finisher - and in asking him to play that role that he's not suited for BMc is doing him a grave disservice.

[cmonurz]

Back in page god-knows-what Snowball was complaining when I highlighted that a lot of Long's goals had come in a purple patch last Xmas. Now he wants to highlight that many of Holt's goals came in one game.

Transparent hypocrisy.

Jesus, how pathetic are you?

In Long's case we are talking about six seasons of steady and clear improvement. You engineered 20x games to exclude a purple patch and exclude two cup games against Premiership clubs.

In the case of Holt, he had only ever played 18 CCC games and scored 4 goals.

Then in a SINGLE, ONE-OFF game he gets three goals and suddenly he's the bees-knees. I've said HE MAY WELL BE GOOD. I've said HE MAY WELL REPEAT his seven goals in 18/19.

IF he does he may get to 14 goals in 36 and 18 in 46.

OTOH he might repeat his 4 in 17, in which case he should finish the same or thereabouts as Long.

Only one person (to his credit) had suggested Holt as a possible before yesterday. Now of course the children clamour, because in ONE GAME the player did something a bit special. IF he repeats his tally for these 18 games in the next 18 games, then Holt will have proven himself.

Not pathetic, just highlighting your hypocrisy.

On the one hand you choose to highlight Holt's hat-trick and that single game as a possible anomaly.

On the other hand, when I posted my stats on Long, you say 'but let's look at his overall record'.

Holt's stats - 18 games and 4 goals, and 1 game and 3 goals. I don't know how many (if any) of those are penalties.

For comparison, Long's stats to the start of last season, goals from open play (which is what I am interested in, so please deduct any pens from Holt's total).

15 games, 0 goals, then
4 games, 4 goals, then
28 games, 2 goals.

So on the face of it, and the point of my post, you have two statistically similar samples - a larger relatively barren spell, and a purple patch in each, and yet you choose to analyse them differently. And coupled with your obvious agenda, that makes your posts hypocritical, as oppose to just wrong.

[PlasticRoyale]

Nearly got a 100 pager on your hands Hugo - I'll call snowball a pcunt for using amateur stats in my next post, should take it ton up









Only shame is that it's on the team board

[Snowball]

15 games, 0 goals, then
4 games, 4 goals, then
28 games, 2 goals.

That's 47 games, correct?

You show SIX goals in 47 games when Long has scored THIRTEEN in his last 40/41.

But you're not being selective, no, not at all.

I am interested in goals scored. END

If Noel Hunt gets a penalty and scores it every game for the rest of the season, nobody will complain. Nobody ever complained about Doyle's ratio of pens, or Kitson's ratio of pens. They aren't far different from Long's

[Snowball]

For comparison, Long's stats to the start of last season, goals from open play (which is what I am interested in, so please deduct any pens from Holt's total).

15 games, 0 goals, then
4 games, 4 goals, then
28 games, 2 goals.

You're wrong, and deliberately mis-representing the facts. First, those 15 games are actually FOURTEEN and the total minutes equates to just 5 games. 5 games with no goals is not at all unusual. Doyle went 11.9 this season in the league...

Here are the actual games, minutes goals. First column shows minutes played, second column is the appearance-counter. Poor bloke barely stood a chance under Todger

26 01 0-0 Forest
00 00 5-1 Burton
90 02 0-3 Newc'le <<<<
00 00 0-0 Swansea
90 03 1-3 Sheff U <<<<<

00 00 1-2 Barnsley
06 04 3-1 Barnsley
00 00 0-0 Doncaster
00 00 0-1 Cardiff
00 00 2-3 Peterboro
00 00 1-1 Watford
00 00 2-1 Preston
00 00 0-2 Boro End of EIGHT GAMES SPELL where Long played a total of SIX MINUTES

37 05 1-3 WBA
90 06 1-4 QPR <<<<<
25 07 0-1 Leicester
34 08 3-1 Coventry
29 09 1-1 Ipswich

00 00 2-1 Blackpool
45 10 1-2 Derby
00 00 2-0 Sheff W
00 00 2-4 Palace
00 00 1-1 Scunny End of FIVE GAMES SPELL WHERE LONG PLAYED A TOTAL OF 45 MINUTES (and that due to an injury to Church)

472 Minutes under Rodgers, just 3 x 90 Minute games and a wowzer total in the other games of 202 minutes playing time between August 1st and 12th December. 4 MONTHS and 11 days when Rodgers virtually froze Long out. He wouldn't even be match-fit with so few minutes.

Our record, virtually "without Long playing" was P21 W5 D6 23-33 GD of -10.

As soon as McDermott took over Long started to get minutes, 73-55-60-13 (average 50 minutes per game). This was a totally different approach and Long repaid McDermott, the club and the fans with a priceless won-penalty at Liverpool and then a great winning goal.

In the next block of games when Shane was a regular (he played in 26 out of 31 the season's end, the main missed games being due to a red card) and what happened to the club's fortunes?

P21 W05 D06 L10 23-33 GD of -10. Shane starting 3 games, laying only 472 minutes
P25 W12 D06 L07 45-30 GD of +15 Shane playing in 26 games, scoring 9 goals (20% of the club's goals).

Look at the difference once McDermott took over. Straight away he started extending Long's game-time and we went from strength to strength until Long got sent off v WBA. Note that as soon as he started playing 90-minute games he started getting goals, and he was brought back quickly after his suspension and again scored goals.


73 11 1-1 Bristol
55 12 1-1 Swansea
60 13 1-4 Plymouth
13 14 1-1 Liverpool
39 15 2-1 Open Play - Also won penalty Liverpool NOTE this is the 15th game, not the 16th. How much did it earn the club?
12 16 1-2 Nottm Forest
26 17 1-0 Burnley

90 18 0-3 Sheff U
90 19 1-0 Open Play Barnsley
90 20 2-1 Open Play Doncaster
90 21 2-1 Open Play + Scored Pen Plymouth
48 22 2-2 WBA (Sent Off)

00 23 3-1 Palace
00 24 0-2 Blackpool
00 25 3-2 WBA
00 26 5-0 Sheff W

90 27 2-4 Open Play x 2 Goals Villa
90 28 4-1 Open Play Derby
88 29 2-0 Bristol
68 30 1-0 QPR
90 31 1-1 Boro
75 32 2-1 Leicester
65 33 1-1 WBA
73 34 1-2 Ipswich
00 35 3-0 Coventry
64 36 0-0 Cardiff
79 37 1-2 Newcastle
90 38 6-0 Open Play Peterboro
29 39 2-2 Scunny
61 40 0-3 Watford
84 41 4-1 Preston


Nine goals in 1774 Minutes = 1 goal every 197 Minutes, 8 of the 9 from Open Play

[Snowball]

For comparison, Long's stats to the start of last season, goals from open play (which is what I am interested in, so please deduct any pens from Holt's total).

Are you referring to 2008-09? NOT 2009-10?

Is there some deep reason why you'd feel the need to ignore 2009-10 and 2010-11?

[floyd__streete]

v Derby (both open play) Aged 19 Years and 3 Months

This is remarkable. Has anyone this young ever scored a goal before? They shouldn't even be allowed to cross the road without an adult at the tender age of 19 years and 3 months. Apparently he went out for a celebratory slap-up meal afterwards with his family....."open wide, here comes the aeroplane neeyaaaah...."

[Millsy]

[cmonurz]

For comparison, Long's stats to the start of last season, goals from open play (which is what I am interested in, so please deduct any pens from Holt's total).

Are you referring to 2008-09? NOT 2009-10?

Is there some deep reason why you'd feel the need to ignore 2009-10 and 2010-11?

As you should be aware by now as I have posted them enough, those stats go back to the start of last season, so they are all of 09-10, and then every game this campaign, 10-11. I originally took that sample as you were crying out for whole season stats, so I went back to the start of last season.

Do you see the problem with your approach? I've said it numerous times on this thread. YOU (and no-one else) is allowed to decide what is relevant. YOU have decided that I can't be interested in goals from open play. YOU are accusing others of being selective then doing so yourself. It's not 'discussion' it's just you presenting your opinion and then openly trying to squash debate.

I am interested in goals from open play. That's what matters to me, and so I am commenting on it. If you don't like it, don't respond.

My post above is 99.5% correct. I apologise for over-stating the first set of appearances by 1.

So Longs record is 14 games and 0 goals, then 4 games and 4 goals, and 28 games and 2 goals. That set of stats is as equally skewed by a purple patch as Holt's weekend hat-trick did to his. And yet you want to take a different approach to each set of data. Transparent and desperate.

[Snowball]

Can I add to Handbag's analysis the incident away at Brum in the last PL season when in the very last minute the ball fell to SL about 6 yards out and with a nearly open goal he tried to do a scissors-kick and missed.

I'm convinced if he'd tried to head it, or even just try to play it normally, he'd almost certainly have scored - but the fact that in such a crucial moment of such a critical game he decided to try something so ambitious says something about his judgement under pressure.

Just so I have you right, you are complaining about "an ambitious attempt at a volley" by a 20-Year old player who had only just come on the pitch (he played a total of six minutes that game) and in the whole of his career to that point had started just ONE CCC game and 7 Premiership games IN HIS LIFE!

[Stranded]

Can I add to Handbag's analysis the incident away at Brum in the last PL season when in the very last minute the ball fell to SL about 6 yards out and with a nearly open goal he tried to do a scissors-kick and missed.

I'm convinced if he'd tried to head it, or even just try to play it normally, he'd almost certainly have scored - but the fact that in such a crucial moment of such a critical game he decided to try something so ambitious says something about his judgement under pressure.

Just so I have you right, you are complaining about "an ambitious attempt at a volley" by a 20-Year old player who had only just come on the pitch (he played a total of six minutes that game) and in the whole of his career to that point had started just ONE CCC game and 7 Premiership games IN HIS LIFE!

He was complaining (as many did at the time) at the poor decision to attempt such a volley when he didn't need to.

[Millsy]

[Wycombe Royal]

If Noel Hunt gets a penalty and scores it every game for the rest of the season, nobody will complain. Nobody ever complained about Doyle's ratio of pens, or Kitson's ratio of pens. They aren't far different from Long's

THe difference with Kitson and Doyle is that they were scoring open play goals as well as penalties. This season Long has scored 75% of his goals from the spot in nearly half a season. That is his current form and Doyle and Kitson did not rely that heavily on penalties.

Now I know you will come back and say that his ratio of penalties over his career is no worse than Doyle's or Kitson's and that is very true. But it is NOW that matters, not what he has done in the past and the simple fact is that he is out of form in front of goal.

If Noel was to score 20 more goals this season and 15 of them are penalties I am pretty sure he would get criticism. No player is immune from it and most of them get it at some point or another when parts of there game arenot what they should be.

I shudder to think what it would have been like on here if you were around when Oster, SHunt and Harper were being criticsed endlessly.

[Snowball]

I am interested in goals from open play. That's what matters to me, and so I am commenting on it. If you don't like it, don't respond.

So why do you represent EIGHT open play goals that season as if they were four?

So Longs record is 14 games and 0 goals,

No it is NOT. It is 14 APPEARANCES. 3 genuine starts and 11 pathetic sub appearances totaling 200 minutes spread over more than 4 months. He was clearly frozen out by Todger. Once he was given his chance he took it and scored 9 goals, EIGHT in open play, at more or less a goal every 2 90-minutes.

then 4 games and 4 goals, and 28 games and 2 goals.

You forgot to add "I am ignoring Long's brilliant FA Cup exploits when he score 3 goals against Premiership opposition"


Oh I SEEeeeeeeeeeeeee

12 16 1-2 Nott F PLEASE IGNORE THIS GAME (NOTE SHORT SUB APPEARANCE)
26 17 1-0 Burnley PLEASE IGNORE THIS GAME AS IT'S CUP AND MIGHT MAKE LONG LOOK OK. (NOTE SHORT SUB APPEARANCE)
90 18 0-3 Sheff U PLEASE IGNORE THIS GAME

NOW HOW CAN WE MAKE THE FOLLOWING LOOK BAD? HMMMM...

90 19 1-0 Scored in Open Play Barnsley PLEASE NOTE DATE = JANUARY 30TH.....
90 20 2-1 Scored in Open Play Doncaster
90 21 2-1 Scored in Open Play + Scored Penalty Plymouth (PENALTIES ARE NO LONGER GOALS UNDER FIFA'S NEW "CMONURZ RULE") FEB 9th

FOUR GOALS IN THREE GAMES... CRAP HUH? WELL THEY'RE NOT REAL GOALS COS THEY ARE A PURPLE PATCH INNIT?

LET'S IGNORE THE FACT THAT NOT ONLY DOES LONG SCORE, BUT IN TWO OF THESE GAMES HE ACTUALLY WINS THE GAME FOR RFC.

48 22 2-2 WBA (SENT OFF AFTER 48 MINUTES)

00 23 3-1 Palace
00 24 0-2 Blackpool
00 25 3-2 WBA
00 26 5-0 Sheff W

FOUR and a half games GAMES OUT

90 27 2-4 Open Play x 2 Villa (PLEASE IGNORE THIS BECAUSE LONG SCORED TWICE in open play IN THE CUP v PREMIERSHIP OPPOSITION)

90 28 4-1 Open Play Derby OH ANOTHER GAME (LEAGUE GAME 4, SEE?) NOTE DATE IS NOW MARCH 10TH. ONE MONTH GAP


Long's first goal was January 13th, his last goal April 17th, yet we are to take the impression that he had some distorted purple patch of 4 goals in a "brief" interlude...

You are a joke cmonurz

[Snowball]

v Derby (both open play) Aged 19 Years and 3 Months

This is remarkable. Has anyone this young ever scored a goal before? They shouldn't even be allowed to cross the road without an adult at the tender age of 19 years and 3 months. Apparently he went out for a celebratory slap-up meal afterwards with his family....."open wide, here comes the aeroplane neeyaaaah...."

He had already scored goals. That was not the point. The point is raking up a miss that a naive footballing "kid" made three years ago

[Snowball]

He was complaining (as many did at the time) at the poor decision to attempt such a volley when he didn't need to.

Something that had absolutely nothing to do with the fact he was a raw kid
with very very limited experience...

[PlasticRoyale]

Ton up will be a piece of piss