European Leagues Thread 2012/2013

[Victor Meldrew]

[quote="prostak"]How many huge victories is that so far this year? Joke league...[/quote

It's far from being a joke league with the best players in the world playing there.
There haven't been many big scores,not like the 9s and 8s in the Premier League last season.
Until Saturday Almeria had the 3rd best defensive record in La Liga but Barcelona had one of those nights that only they are capable of producing.
THE big game of the first half of the season is next Monday night when Barcelona are at home to Real Madrid two of the best sides in world football and it is always a cracker.

BTW on Saturday you could see why Barcelona don't really need Fabregas,a player who would get into most if not all other teams in Europe,because not only do they have Iniesta and Javi controlling midfield they now have Thiago,a youngster in the same mould-the future and the present do look very bright for Barcelona.

[prostak]

But if the best players all play for the two best teams, with very little exception, that's not really a valid point.

[Victor Meldrew]

But if the best players all play for the two best teams, with very little exception, that's not really a valid point.

That is what tends to happen in football in every country.
In Spain there are still some decent players also turning out for Athletic Madrid,Valencia,Sevilla,Villareal and others.
LA LIGA>>>>>>>>>>>>Premier League>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Serie A>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bundesliga.

[prostak]

So that's why the Bundesliga is about to overtake Serie A to match the Premier League and SPL del Sol for European qualification berths... right? And why the 1. BL has a higher average attendance than any sports league in the world bar the NFL? I didn't realize 'decent' had become a synonym for 'best in the world', incidentally.

It depends on what you want to see, I suppose. A grotesque collection of galacticos or genuine competition. The same two teams have won the Primera almost twice as often as everyone else put together. The Bundesliga has, of late, tended toward a pattern of one year Bayern, the next an often unexpected other team, as champions. To that end, nine teams have won La Liga in its entire history. That's only two more than have won the German championship since national reunification in 1990, before we even consider going back as far as 1963 and the first unified national league.

Say you prefer the lack of competition given by the Primera if you like, but don't disingenuously dress up opinion as universally-held knowledge.

[Victor Meldrew]

So that's why the Bundesliga is about to overtake Serie A to match the Premier League and SPL del Sol for European qualification berths... right? And why the 1. BL has a higher average attendance than any sports league in the world bar the NFL? I didn't realize 'decent' had become a synonym for 'best in the world', incidentally.

It depends on what you want to see, I suppose. A grotesque collection of galacticos or genuine competition. The same two teams have won the Primera almost twice as often as everyone else put together. The Bundesliga has, of late, tended toward a pattern of one year Bayern, the next an often unexpected other team, as champions. To that end, nine teams have won La Liga in its entire history. That's only two more than have won the German championship since national reunification in 1990, before we even consider going back as far as 1963 and the first unified national league.

Say you prefer the lack of competition given by the Primera if you like, but don't disingenuously dress up opinion as universally-held knowledge.

Bundesliga may well be up there with Aussie Rules as one of the most watched competitions in world sport-fine.
It may also be competitive football but so is my local Sunday League.
I prefer to watch the best players around and at the moment the best IMHO are playing in Spain including Germany's two top players from the last world cup as well as all bar one of the world cup winning Spanish side.
Not sure what your disingenous statement is all about-this is a forum about opinions and I am expressing mine.

[prostak]

Fair enough. To be honest, I'm not really fussed over the supposed quality of players, and as I said it's purely a matter of taste anyway. However, I will fight to the death against the notion that Serie A is anywhere near as enjoyable in any way as the 3 main European leagues. I'd rather watch the Ekstraklasa - at least the fans don't pretend that's not fixed.

[handbags_harris]

http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/5983/38/

Typically good article in WSC about the issues surrounding the demise of former European Cup winners, Feyenoord.

During the 1960s they were believed to be the richest club in the world, but today Feyenoord's coffers are empty. Last season they lost €14 million (£12m) even when the directors were already desperately cutting costs. The club are currently under permanent scrutiny of a financial commission of the Dutch FA, along with about ten other sides who have to balance their books before they can think of buying new players.

Recently a group of fans donated about €20m to settle the worst debts, which meant that Feyenoord can finish the season, but that won't be much help for technical director Leo Beenhakker. Don Leo can only sign free agents and this week he must have reached a new low by giving a trial to striker Jhon van Beukering, who has previously been released by second-level clubs SC Cambuur and Go Ahead Eagles.

The one consolation for the former European Cup winners is the unrelenting love of their supporters. Even after the devastating 10-0 defeat at PSV on October 24 – the club's worst-ever defeat – Feyenoord's stadium, the Kuip, was packed to the rafters three days later for the home game against relegation rivals VVV-Venlo. They won 3-0 in a tense affair, but have picked up only two points since. On Sunday there is a local derby against high-flying ADO Den Haag, followed by decisive meetings with Willem II, then their feeder club on the other side of the river, Excelsior, who have a €3m budget. To cap it all, there's a visit to Ajax just before Christmas.

This summer Feyenoord had to release experienced players like Roy Makaay and Denny Landzaat, to save on salaries. Now half their squad are straight from the Under-19 youth league. They are talented, but not equipped to fight for points – even at 7-0 down in Eindhoven they were playing as if it was an exhibition game. This is not a team to cope with the rough and tumble of a relegation battle. If results don't pick up, the fans might start to get anxious, which can make the Kuip quite a daunting place – many homegrown players have succumbed in the past before building decent careers elsewhere.

The Kuip itself is the biggest problem. It is completely out of date and generates hardly any matchday income from hospitality, leaving Feyenoord miles behind other European clubs financially. A modern, state-of-the-art ground was supposed to stage the World Cup final eight years from now. However, the chances of winning the 2018 bid have become slim, while the city of Rotterdam is having doubts about splashing out on a sports venue at a time of economic crisis. Feyenoord's current restructuring is based on promises that the new stadium would generate enough money to pay off their loans. Now that the future of the stadium is in doubt, the club's existence is on the brink as well. "We should fold up and continue under Excelsior's licence," said former chairman Jorien van den Herik recently. If much more goes wrong, it might be the only option left.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Fair enough. To be honest, I'm not really fussed over the supposed quality of players, and as I said it's purely a matter of taste anyway. However, I will fight to the death against the notion that Serie A is anywhere near as enjoyable in any way as the 3 main European leagues. I'd rather watch the Ekstraklasa - at least the fans don't pretend that's not fixed.

I think what holds Bundesliga back in the eyes of many is the lack of star names. Neutrals with no particular concern about the outcome of a game are much more likely to watch a game featuring "big name" players.

Personally I think the Bundesliga is great. It's a good standard, very competitive, and not completely predictable - I'd rather be at a Bundesliga match than at a match in any other country (Reading games excepted). It's about the football. It's about the atmosphere. It's not about primadonnas, and that's the way it should be in my book.

[handbags_harris]

Chris Hughton sacked by Newcastle Utd, Martin Jol leaves Ajax for reasons unknown. 2+2=5?

Haven't the time for a full update, but here are the latest results in the Eredivisie (Round 17):

FC Groningen 4-1 Vitesse (Granqvist 53, Matavz 63, Andersson 67, Sparv 81; Pedersen 79)
Ajax 1-1 NEC (Mido 76; Nuytinck 78)
PSV 5-2 Heracles (Dzsudzsák 36, Toivonen 41 & 74, Afellay 88, Berg 90; Everton 27 & 62; Reekers sent off 70 for Heracles )
FC Twente 2-0 De Graafschap (Janssen 8 & 69)
Willem II 1-1 Feyenoord (van Haaren OG 84; Leerdam 37)
ADO Den Haag 0-2 AZ (Elm 40, Martens 51)
FC Utrecht 2-1 sc Heerenveen (Mertens 34, Wuytens 91; Beerens 24)

Standings (P, W, D, L, Pts, F - A)

1 PSV 17 11 4 2 37 50 - 18
2 FC Twente 17 11 4 2 37 33 - 15
3 FC Groningen 17 10 3 4 33 33 - 22
4 Ajax 17 9 5 3 32 36 - 17
5 AZ 17 9 5 3 32 25 - 16
6 Roda JC Kerkrade 16 7 7 2 28 26 - 20
7 FC Utrecht 17 8 2 7 26 29 - 23
8 ADO Den Haag 17 7 4 6 25 28 - 28
9 sc Heerenveen 17 6 6 5 24 30 - 24
10 NAC Breda 16 7 2 7 22 22 - 25
11 NEC 17 5 5 7 20 28 - 32
12 De Graafschap 17 5 5 7 20 21 - 33
13 Heracles Almelo 17 5 3 9 18 28 - 32
14 Feyenoord 17 4 5 8 17 22 - 33
15 Vitesse 17 4 5 8 17 20 - 31
16 Excelsior 16 4 3 9 15 19 - 30
17 VVV-Venlo 16 3 0 13 9 15 - 34
18 Willem II 17 0 4 13 4 14 - 46

[handbags_harris]

Eredivisie Speelronde 18 results:

Heracles Almelo 2-2 VVV-Venlo (Everton 37, Armenteros 42; Boymans 62, Uchebo 92)
NAC Breda 3-1 FC Utrecht (Fehér 12, Schut 56, Luijckx 67; Silberbauer 9)
NEC 3-1 Willem II (Vleminckx 11, Schöne 55, Goossens 66; Lasnik pen 38)
Roda JC Kerkrade 1-1 ADO Den Haag (Janssen 9; Bulykin 13)
De Graafschap 0-0 PSV (Rose sent off for De Graafschap 80; Engelaar sent off for PSV 36)
FC Groningen 2-0 AZ (Matavz 11, 93 - Sparv sent off for FC Groningen 77; Moreno sent off for AZ 89)
Vitesse 0-1 Ajax (Eriksen 11)
sc Heerenveen 6-2 FC Twente (Assaidi 20, 37, 87, Elm 63, Narsingh 74, Väyrynen pen 89; Chadli 32, 51)
Feyenoord 1-0 Excelsior (Castaignos 22)

Standings (P, W, D, L, Pts, F - A)

1 PSV 18 11 5 2 38 50 - 18
2 FC Twente 18 11 4 3 37 35 - 21
3 FC Groningen 18 11 3 4 36 35 - 22
4 Ajax 18 10 5 3 35 37 - 17
5 AZ 18 9 5 4 32 25 - 18
6 Roda JC Kerkrade 17 7 8 2 29 27 - 21
7 sc Heerenveen 18 7 6 5 27 36 - 26
8 FC Utrecht 18 8 2 8 26 30 - 26
9 ADO Den Haag 18 7 5 6 26 29 - 29
10 NAC Breda 17 8 2 7 25 25 - 26
11 NEC 18 6 5 7 23 31 - 33
12 De Graafschap 18 5 6 7 21 21 - 33
13 Feyenoord 18 5 5 8 20 23 - 33
14 Heracles Almelo 18 5 4 9 19 30 - 34
15 Vitesse 18 4 5 9 17 20 - 32
16 Excelsior 17 4 3 10 15 19 - 31
17 VVV-Venlo 17 3 1 13 10 17 - 36
18 Willem II 18 0 4 14 4 15 - 49

[bobbybottler]

Mental set of results this week Handbags, neither of the top two winning, and Twente in fact getting an utter battering.

There's a very downbeat piece in this month's WSC about Ajax and their apparent absence from this year's title race but they're hardly out of it at the moment.

[Ferris]

Just noticed Dortmund are already 11 points clear at the top of the Bundesliga. They've won all of their eight away games and drawn one, lost one, won six at home.

[handbags_harris]

Mental set of results this week Handbags, neither of the top two winning, and Twente in fact getting an utter battering.

There's a very downbeat piece in this month's WSC about Ajax and their apparent absence from this year's title race but they're hardly out of it at the moment.

Yeah, indeed it is. The only real non-surprise was FC Groningen's result against AZ. Groningen's season so far is quite exceptional, lying in third place and not without a shout at the title. Not sure about their run-in, who and where they have to play but for a relatively small provincial club in European terms to be third, and amongst some of Europe's best known names in their domestic league, is remarkable, even more so when you consider they've merely been a mid-table club for years and haven't invested heavily at all.

Will look up that article. Should be a good one as ever, although seems slightly surprising considering the position Ajax are in. Some ropey results but they've generally got wins when required and I was certainly surprised to see Martin Jol leave earlier this month.

[swansea jack]

Just noticed Dortmund are already 11 points clear at the top of the Bundesliga. They've won all of their eight away games and drawn one, lost one, won six at home.

Me too after reading about Schweinsteiger's (sp?) contract extension. What's going on there then?

[prostak]

As I've stated before, the BL tends towards one year of Bayern domination then another team from a competitive pack winning it - recently it's gone Stuttgart/Bayern/Wolfsburg/Bayern and Dortmund look fairly unstoppable this year.

Several things are contributing to this, primarily among them the stagnation in Munich. Although they ended up winning quite comfortably, they were far from impressive for much of last season. Arjen Robben dragged them through to the end by sheer outrageous talent, ensuring a lot of potential draws and defeats were saved. His total absence so far is really showing, especially since Ribery seemingly can't be bothered anymore (and has lost a great deal of that explosive pace even when he can).

It's also worth noting that Bayern's defence is truly awful, and has somehow worsened of late. Van Buyten and Demichelis, hardly impervious at their best, are going through different types of career crisis, to the extent that Anatoli Tymoszczuk, traditionally a defensive midfielder and not a van Gaal favorite by any means, is currently preferred as partner to Breno. The team have normally been able to rely on outscoring their opponents, but a lack of success up front has necessitated a rethink. They'll still finish in European spots, though. then spend enough to win next year.

All this is not to take away from the lovely football being played by Jurgen Klopp's BVB, though. It's really lovely to watch, and it's good to see one of the old guard back at the top, especially given their troubles of not so long ago.

[sandman]

But if the best players all play for the two best teams, with very little exception, that's not really a valid point.

Amongst others Forlan, Llorente, Joaquín (Getting back to the sort of form he showed in his first few seasons), Navas and Fabiano are all very good players, better than most Bundesliga teams have to offer and don't play for Madrid or Barca. Not forgetting top young players like de Gea, Kun Agüero, Mata and Banega.

[handbags_harris]

Just five of nine games made it this weekend in the Eredivisie, one of the matches to go was De Klassieker where Feyenoord's attempts to beat Ajax for the first time in six years were scuppered by snow. The match has been rescheduled for January 19th. Of the games that went ahead, FC Groningen failed to find their way to the top of the table, for a short while at least, after a second half collapse against Rotterdam minnows Excelsior. As it is PSV sit top going into the break, Speelronde 20 not being played until the weekend of 22nd January. Willem II's miserable season continued with yet another defeat courtesy of two own goals, and they sit bottom with 4 points from 19 games.

Results Speelronde 19:

sc Heerenveen 4-0 De Graafschap (Elm 11, Djuricic34, Narsingh 44 & 66)
NAC Breda 1-1 Vitesse (Gudelj 58; Jenner 30 - Gilissen sent off for NAC Breda on 82)
Excelsior 2-2 FC Groningen (Koolwijk 49, Bovenberg 89; Tadic 7, Paauwe 29)
ADO Den Haag 2-1 Willem II (Vossebelt OG 10, Lampi OG 52; Biemans 51)
PSV 3-1 Roda JC Kerkrade (Lens 5, Berg 53, Dzsudzsák 68; Hadouir 24)

Standings (P, W, D, L, Pts, F - A)

1 PSV 19 12 5 2 41 53 - 19
2 FC Twente 18 11 4 3 37 35 - 21
3 FC Groningen 19 11 4 4 37 37 - 24
4 Ajax 18 10 5 3 35 37 - 17
5 AZ 18 9 5 4 32 25 - 18
6 Roda JC Kerkrade 19 8 8 3 32 32 - 24
7 sc Heerenveen 19 8 6 5 30 40 - 26
8 ADO Den Haag 19 8 5 6 29 31 - 30
9 NAC Breda 19 9 3 7 29 29 - 28
10 FC Utrecht 18 8 2 8 26 30 - 26
11 NEC 18 6 5 7 23 31 - 33
12 De Graafschap 19 5 6 8 21 21 - 37
13 Feyenoord 18 5 5 8 20 23 - 33
14 Heracles Almelo 18 5 4 9 19 30 - 34
15 Vitesse 19 4 6 9 18 21 - 33
16 Excelsior 19 4 4 11 16 22 - 36
17 VVV-Venlo 18 3 1 14 10 17 - 40
18 Willem II 19 0 4 15 4 16 - 51

[daswonder]

Reports in Italy suggest Rafa Benitez has been sacked after his outburst at the weekend.

[soggy biscuit]

Reports in Italy suggest Rafa Benitez has been sacked after his outburst at the weekend.

There are three possibilities for the club, One, 100% support for the coach and buy four or five players to build a stronger team with competition among the players to be able to carry on winning matches and trophies. Two, carry on like this without a project, without planning, and go ahead with one person to blame for the whole season getting to May this way. The third is to speak to my agent and reach an agreement if there is not this support. Simple.

three please

[prostak]

More trouble for Steve McLaren - Wolfsburg are out of the DFB-Pokal, losing 3-1 at home to second-division Cottbus. They had a full-strength team out, too. With the fans already demonstrating for his removal after an alarming decline in results, he might not see the winter break through. Duisburg achieved not so much a giant-killing as a 'goes to the gym every so often, can probably handle himself but you wouldn't be too worried about spilling his pint'-killing, knocking out FC Pold... I mean Koln 2-1.

Bayern won at Stuttgart, 6-3, in the night's other big game, and a great example of how defending has of late become a dirty word in Germany. It's as though the league is taking part in group therapy, scarred by Hertha's near-miss title attempt of 2009. The memories of all those mogadon 1-0 victories have inspired the big teams, led bravely by Bayern, to utterly neglect any sort of defensive duty.