"Reading prove patience is a virtue"

[prostak]

08 Bolton .... ???

Why the question marks?

[Snowball]

08 Bolton .... ???

Why the question marks?

I don't know their financial stuff

[prostak]

Ahh... It's pretty unconventional, with some worrying parallels with the likes of Gretna. The Swiss Ramble has a full analysis of the last 5 years. In short: their business 'model' is nothing of the sort, as they lose millions annually, but are bankrolled by a local electrical components millionaire. As long as he stays alive (think he's in his 60s) they can remain a Premier League club, but you can't stay in that division off of 20.000 crowds and 22 quid tickets.

[Yellowcoat]

Good article. Many on here could do with reading it in full as it provides a useful insight into the financial side of running a football club. In direct contrast to the naive assumptions of some on this forum.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Roll on the day when the banks get sensible and reign in the loans to football clubs, then and only then will we know if the JM way was correct, one thing it has been though is successful so far. It is impossible to know what might have happened had things been done differently.

I am still hoping that RFC are failing to sign some players because they are just after money, and when offered a contract with clauses for relegation don't want to know.

[glass half full]

In many other businesses, a lot of the football clubs 'in trouble' would almost certainly have gone to the wall. As it is, by financial jiggerypokery and paying those to whom they owe money nothing or next to nothing (Leeds, Leicester, Portsmouth ) they have somehow survived. Regrettably, some clubs lower down the pyramid (Windsor and Eton) have not.

I would rather have a 'Reading model' but suspect that because these are 'big' clubs, they will always find some way around the finacial maze that is modern-day football.

[Wimb]

Ahh... It's pretty unconventional, with some worrying parallels with the likes of Gretna. The Swiss Ramble has a full analysis of the last 5 years. In short: their business 'model' is nothing of the sort, as they lose millions annually, but are bankrolled by a local electrical components millionaire. As long as he stays alive (think he's in his 60s) they can remain a Premier League club, but you can't stay in that division off of 20.000 crowds and 22 quid tickets.

That is a fantastic article btw totally agree anyone interested in football finance should give it a look.

[Hampshire Royal]

It's a very interesting article which shows the fragility of teams like Bolton who chase the dream. The difference between Reading and Bolton is that it has long been JM's intention to make RFC survive on it's own merits. If he does achieve this (and I think he will) we will be in a better position than teams like Bolton. They are being artificially kept at their lofty position by money injected (in the form of loans) by their chairman who owns an electrical components company. What happens if the market for electrical components declines significantly? Bolton will be in trouble. Not due to football pressures, but due to something over which they have no control. If JM's ambition is realised, we will never be in that position.

People are also looking at QPR as some sort of model that we could/should follow. The owners of QPR are not dyed-in-the-wool QPR supporters, rather they wanted to own a club in West London. Now, what happens if Ambramovich suddenly loses more than he can afford during the Financial Crisis? Will he sell Chelsea? Quite possibly. Who would have the sort of money that would be needed? The attraction of owning Chelsea is greater than the attraction of owning QPR so, maybe, they would dump QPR and invest in Chelsea. I don't know, but I'd rather support a team that is self-sufficient than one that relies on money from outside the club to survive. It's reasonably well known that JM wants to sell, but not to just anyone, I believe that when he says that he wants to sell to 'the right person' he means someone who will carry on the work he has done with Reading.

[Wimb]

It's a very interesting article which shows the fragility of teams like Bolton who chase the dream. The difference between Reading and Bolton is that it has long been JM's intention to make RFC survive on it's own merits. If he does achieve this (and I think he will) we will be in a better position than teams like Bolton. They are being artificially kept at their lofty position by money injected (in the form of loans) by their chairman who owns an electrical components company. What happens if the market for electrical components declines significantly? Bolton will be in trouble. Not due to football pressures, but due to something over which they have no control. If JM's ambition is realised, we will never be in that position.

People are also looking at QPR as some sort of model that we could/should follow. The owners of QPR are not dyed-in-the-wool QPR supporters, rather they wanted to own a club in West London. Now, what happens if Ambramovich suddenly loses more than he can afford during the Financial Crisis? Will he sell Chelsea? Quite possibly. Who would have the sort of money that would be needed? The attraction of owning Chelsea is greater than the attraction of owning QPR so, maybe, they would dump QPR and invest in Chelsea. I don't know, but I'd rather support a team that is self-sufficient than one that relies on money from outside the club to survive. It's reasonably well known that JM wants to sell, but not to just anyone, I believe that when he says that he wants to sell to 'the right person' he means someone who will carry on the work he has done with Reading.

Spot on, it's just the way you see things really. Some believe the club should be saving for a rainy day, keeping themselves in shape etc, while others want the club to live for the moment and keep pushing until the bank and the loans run dry.

Truth be told the answer lies somewhere in the middle and whilst I'm very very happy with the way the club is being run and the way we're going about building a promotion calibre team, I'd still like the odd big name signing to excite the imagination.

[Wimb]

I'd still like the odd big name signing to excite the imagination.

Bring on:
Jan Johannes Vennegoor of Hesselink
Edson Arentes Do Nascimento Pelé
Rutgerus Johannes Martinius van Nistelrooij
Omjayprakash Pyarelal Harishchand
Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira
Antonio Augusto Ribeiro Reis Junior
Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite
Luís Filipe Madeira Caeiro Figo
Stylianos Giannakopoulos

Didn't realise that was Ruud's full name, would they say Ruud in the Netherlands or is it an abbreviation like Jo/Joseph etc

[Factfinder]

Nice piece in the Guardian today. Sure to split views here...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/foot ... n-madjeski

John Madejski comissioned that!

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

Truth be told the answer lies somewhere in the middle and whilst I'm very very happy with the way the club is being run and the way we're going about building a promotion calibre team, I'd still like the odd big name signing to excite the imagination.

Sums up the feelings of about 80% of posters on here I suspect, me included.

[Schards#2]

Schards always makes good points and can put forward a strong argument. But for me their always warped by an unduly negative twist though - quite possibly to help try and avoid having to back down from his infamous thread about sea changes and mid-table mediocrity.One of the major causes of falling through the trap door into League One is financial difficulties. If you can avoid those then you always have a good base to build on for getting back into the Premier League.

Biding your time with moderate success each season >>>>>> brief big success followed by an increased chance of nosedive back to our old stomping ground of the third tier IMO


2ww1wc - you can't count mate. 3 promotions in 20 years.

Two managers, all our best players, a 9th place finish and a current position of 12th further on, what was I thinking?

[Victor Meldrew]

It's a very interesting article which shows the fragility of teams like Bolton who chase the dream. The difference between Reading and Bolton is that it has long been JM's intention to make RFC survive on it's own merits. If he does achieve this (and I think he will) we will be in a better position than teams like Bolton. They are being artificially kept at their lofty position by money injected (in the form of loans) by their chairman who owns an electrical components company. What happens if the market for electrical components declines significantly? Bolton will be in trouble. Not due to football pressures, but due to something over which they have no control. If JM's ambition is realised, we will never be in that position.

People are also looking at QPR as some sort of model that we could/should follow. The owners of QPR are not dyed-in-the-wool QPR supporters, rather they wanted to own a club in West London. Now, what happens if Ambramovich suddenly loses more than he can afford during the Financial Crisis? Will he sell Chelsea? Quite possibly. Who would have the sort of money that would be needed? The attraction of owning Chelsea is greater than the attraction of owning QPR so, maybe, they would dump QPR and invest in Chelsea. I don't know, but I'd rather support a team that is self-sufficient than one that relies on money from outside the club to survive. It's reasonably well known that JM wants to sell, but not to just anyone, I believe that when he says that he wants to sell to 'the right person' he means someone who will carry on the work he has done with Reading.

It's a reasonable argument but you didn't include the £30 million or so of TV money for staying in The Premiership which goes a long way towards Bolton and Wigan receiving external income from wealthy chairmen who are prepared to add their own investment.
They also have significant assets in the playing staff,Elmander and Cahill are collectively worth around £25 million,whereas our top asset is possibly valued around the £3 million mark.

I'm not disagreeing with you about how Reading should do things (we lagged behind for so many years with our youth development losing potential youngsters to Southampton and the like) but we have gone from being big spenders in Div 1 (remember how much players like Butler cost)to a club that has gone for broke with The Academy and the players it produces.
So far we have had one excellent product (sold after one season) and a number of maybes in Pearce and Karacan and possible such as Church and HRK.
It looks as though The Academy has a big gap after these 4 because the club have now invested in 5 outside players all of a similar age rather than wait for our own to come through.

The combination of old and young this season is enough to see us survive at around mid-table this season but to have a good stab at promotion we need a better mix with more of the 24-26 age group as we had with Murty,Shorey,Sonko,Convey Harper,Kitson,Doyle etc rather than the extremes that we now have-IIRC the 2005 side only had Marcus as an over 30 player out of the regular eleven.
What the club is doing now is just as much of a gamble as it is for Bolton to stay up-my wish (expressed at the time) was that we had made a bigger financial investment to stay up and build from strength compared to now where we appear to be trying to build from weakness in terms of where we are in the league structure with no Sky money as income.

As fans we can do nothing about it but support,watch and wait however the transient fans might not have the patience that many of us have had over the years (and regardless of what some say on here the club does need those transient fans for income) and support could well continue to wane.

[Wimb]

It's a reasonable argument but you didn't include the £30 million or so of TV money for staying in The Premiership which goes a long way towards Bolton and Wigan receiving external income from wealthy chairmen who are prepared to add their own investment.
They also have significant assets in the playing staff,Elmander and Cahill are collectively worth around £25 million,whereas our top asset is possibly valued around the £3 million mark.

I'm not disagreeing with you about how Reading should do things (we lagged behind for so many years with our youth development losing potential youngsters to Southampton and the like) but we have gone from being big spenders in Div 1 (remember how much players like Butler cost)to a club that has gone for broke with The Academy and the players it produces.
So far we have had one excellent product (sold after one season) and a number of maybes in Pearce and Karacan and possible such as Church and HRK.
It looks as though The Academy has a big gap after these 4 because the club have now invested in 5 outside players all of a similar age rather than wait for our own to come through.

The combination of old and young this season is enough to see us survive at around mid-table this season but to have a good stab at promotion we need a better mix with more of the 24-26 age group as we had with Murty,Shorey,Sonko,Convey Harper,Kitson,Doyle etc rather than the extremes that we now have-IIRC the 2005 side only had Marcus as an over 30 player out of the regular eleven.
What the club is doing now is just as much of a gamble as it is for Bolton to stay up-my wish (expressed at the time) was that we had made a bigger financial investment to stay up and build from strength compared to now where we appear to be trying to build from weakness in terms of where we are in the league structure with no Sky money as income.

As fans we can do nothing about it but support,watch and wait however the transient fans might not have the patience that many of us have had over the years (and regardless of what some say on here the club does need those transient fans for income) and support could well continue to wane.

Good post VM ^^^

[floyd__streete]

Schards always makes good points and can put forward a strong argument. But for me their always warped by an unduly negative twist though - quite possibly to help try and avoid having to back down from his infamous thread about sea changes and mid-table mediocrity.

Two managers, all our best players, a 9th place finish and a current position of 12th further on, what was I thinking?

[Alan Partridge]

Schards always makes good points and can put forward a strong argument. But for me their always warped by an unduly negative twist though - quite possibly to help try and avoid having to back down from his infamous thread about sea changes and mid-table mediocrity.

Two managers, all our best players, a 9th place finish and a current position of 12th further on, what was I thinking?

That is lovely stuff

[Ian Royal]

little early to be crowing... we've been competitive for the play offs for the equivalent of two of the last three seasons and a couple of wins and we're right back in the pack again this season.

But then if you want to be negative and see the worst in everything then that's easy enough. I don't consider 9th mediocrity by any stretch of the imagination. Each to their own.

[Royal Lady]

You don't get anything for being 9th. Same as we won't if we finish 12th. It's a mediocre position wouldn't you say?

[prostak]

That's a bit like saying Scotland is to the north. It's mediocre by some criteria, but not all - particularly for a club of Reading's stature.

EDIT: