"Reading prove patience is a virtue"

[Ian Royal]

What's your point? Typically a finish between 11 and 17 could count and if we stay there until the end of the season then yes, this season would have petered out into mid-table mediocrity. The first season it has done so unlike the previous two. But then the season isn't over yet and I expect us to rise a few places shortly, even if we do eventually finish 12th... which again I doubt.

[Wimb]

Again depends what you describe as mediocrity.

I'm with Ian/RTG brigade that think if you're in contention up until the final few games then it's hardly been a mediocre season. You could be 7th and 10 points off the playoffs or finish 11th but be within 5 so position isn't really relevant.

Last season we had a dire start before keeping the dream alive with a fantastic set of results, only really ending our charge when the runaway leaders Newcastle beat us at home in April.

It's also far too soon to totally write off this season considering the run of winnable games we have now. This year could well peter out but I would hardly consider 1 season to be a relevant indicator of the way the club is going. Even if you consider the last 3 years as 'failures' we've still had a season relegated on the final day, gone into the final day with a chance of auto promotion and had an amazing late charge snuffled out a few games from the end of the season. 2003/2004 was very similar in that respect, but the next two years saw a young side build and grow.

[Schards#2]

Again depends what you describe as mediocrity.

I'm with Ian/RTG brigade that think if you're in contention up until the final few games then it's hardly been a mediocre season. You could be 7th and 10 points off the playoffs or finish 11th but be within 5 so position isn't really relevant.

Last season we had a dire start before keeping the dream alive with a fantastic set of results, only really ending our charge when the runaway leaders Newcastle beat us at home in April.

It's also far too soon to totally write off this season considering the run of winnable games we have now. This year could well peter out but I would hardly consider 1 season to be a relevant indicator of the way the club is going. Even if you consider the last 3 years as 'failures' we've still had a season relegated on the final day, gone into the final day with a chance of auto promotion and had an amazing late charge snuffled out a few games from the end of the season. 2003/2004 was very similar in that respect, but the next two years saw a young side build and grow.

If we finish below 9th, which I fully expect we will, that will be a fourth successive season where we have finished lower than the previous season, I suspect it may also be fourth successive season where the average attendance has fallen. I also suspect we will still have a mysterious financial black hole still to contend with.

I understand that there are reasons for this but, to take us back to the original point, how can anyone seriously suggest that this is an example others should aspire to follow?

[Wimb]

Does the phrase taking one step back to take two steps forward ring true?

I don't think the article nor even the biggest RTG would say we're moving forward compared to 2005-2008. The point, as I read it, was that Reading have halted the dramatic performance and financial slide that can afflict many relegated clubs and have remained at least competitive in the top half with the chance of the playoffs.

If you measure success against attendances/league positions then there's no argument that we're moving backward. However the more optimistic of us see the investments the club is making in players with the right 'DNA' and believe that we can begin to move the right way again in the near future.

We'll always be forced to sell our best players if the right bid comes in, that's the way of the world, bigger fish eat little fish. I don't know why the financial black hole is so mysterious. We were losing £6 million per season in the Championship before promotion, now ticket prices and attendances are at a similar level you'd expect us to be losing about the same. The club can afford to run at a loss if it's forced too but how long would you advocate doing it for?

[Arch]

I also suspect we will still have a mysterious financial black hole still to contend with.

It's only "mysterious" to the wilfully blinkered. For any Championship team, regular income does not equal regular outlay. So we all have three options - go deeper into debt, sell valuable players, or enjoy the largesse of a rich man. It's literally the same for every single club in the league.

[under the tin]

Does the phrase taking one step back to take two steps forward ring true?

I don't think the article nor even the biggest RTG would say we're moving forward compared to 2005-2008. The point, as I read it, was that Reading have halted the dramatic performance and financial slide that can afflict many relegated clubs and have remained at least competitive in the top half with the chance of the playoffs.

If you measure success against attendances/league positions then there's no argument that we're moving backward. However the more optimistic of us see the investments the club is making in players with the right 'DNA' and believe that we can begin to move the right way again in the near future.

We'll always be forced to sell our best players if the right bid comes in, that's the way of the world, bigger fish eat little fish. I don't know why the financial black hole is so mysterious. We were losing £6 million per season in the Championship before promotion, now ticket prices and attendances are at a similar level you'd expect us to be losing about the same. The club can afford to run at a loss if it's forced too but how long would you advocate doing it for?

Seems to me that a sinking ship is still a sinking ship, no matter how large or small the hole is in the hull.
You reckon the club has arrested the slide, yet concede that the club is still probably losing a significant sum of money each season. We have a new chairman, who unlike the old one, is not prepared to underwrite these losses and fund player acquisitions personally. That is of course his perogative, but it puts the football club in a position where balancing the books has a higher priority than league position. Fans do not follow football clubs because of the propriety of the accounts, they want to see a decent successful team, and that is why attendances are driven by results.
I think that it might just be possible for the club to be self sufficient; but I also believe that will only be achieved at a lower level, with a greatly scaled down operation.

[Wimb]

With the greatest of respects Tin, I honestly can't be bothered to type out the same reply over and over again I do appreciate the response though and you make some good points.

I just don't happen to share the same view.

Or in short, Arch has it pretty much nailed

[Snowball]

Seems to me that a sinking ship is still a sinking ship, no matter how large or small the hole is in the hull. You reckon the club has arrested the slide, yet concede that the club is still probably losing a significant sum of money each season. We have a new chairman, who unlike the old one, is not prepared to underwrite these losses and fund player acquisitions personally. That is of course his perogative, but it puts the football club in a position where balancing the books has a higher priority than league position. Fans do not follow football clubs because of the propriety of the accounts, they want to see a decent successful team, and that is why attendances are driven by results. I think that it might just be possible for the club to be self sufficient; but I also believe that will only be achieved at a lower level, with a greatly scaled down operation.

Don't agree. I would LIKE us to do better, but FIRSTMOST I want the club to be financially viable
and stay around a long, long, time. I believe we have a model (MORE SO under Mac) which has
a very good chance of Championship survival, and a decent chance of the edge of the play-offs
most years. Bringing in players like Brett Williams, Manset, the two "Yanks" gives us a chance of
bagging a top talent, but more importantly is cheap in the short term. Meanwhile the Academy
is producing good talent, with three more looking very promising.

For us to do that extra well (without breaking the bank) we just need 2-3 Academy products, or
some found-cheaply guys like B Williams or The Beast or the two guys from across the pond all to
come to the boil in the same season.

And if we get a Gylfi he either takes us up (we'd probably need 2-3 at the same time) or he's sold and the money sorts us out for two seasons.


I don't have a problem with that

[under the tin]

Replies are of course optional, Wimb, but I suppose I'm another who scratches his head when reading Fc are held up in some quarters as being some kind of beacon as to how to weather the turmoil of relegation from the Premiership.
We don't appear to have done anything much different to most other clubs in the same situation.
We divested ourselves of star players and higher earners, just like everyone else had to.
The club is in debt (to it's owner, same as Bolton)
The club is still not breaking even.

As you said in another thread, Wimb, the club risks being left behind because it won't risk it's long term future for a couple of seasons in the sun. I'm more concerned that fiscal constraints could end up with us being in the same place as where Southampton are now. Sure, we didn't plummet through the leagues like some, post prem. We went more slowly, but ultimately ended up in the same place.
Arch's point is indeed inarguable, so we'd all better hope that the Academy, and the scouts can keep on finding more Gylfi's.

[Wimb]

Replies are of course optional, Wimb, but I suppose I'm another who scratches his head when reading Fc are held up in some quarters as being some kind of beacon as to how to weather the turmoil of relegation from the Premiership.
We don't appear to have done anything much different to most other clubs in the same situation.
We divested ourselves of star players and higher earners, just like everyone else had to.
The club is in debt (to it's owner, same as Bolton)
The club is still not breaking even.

As you said in another thread, Wimb, the club risks being left behind because it won't risk it's long term future for a couple of seasons in the sun. I'm more concerned that fiscal constraints could end up with us being in the same place as where Southampton are now. Sure, we didn't plummet through the leagues like some, post prem. We went more slowly, but ultimately ended up in the same place.
Arch's point is indeed inarguable, so we'd all better hope that the Academy, and the scouts can keep on finding more Gylfi's.

No offence intended Tin, wasn't a problem with your argument or anything!

I just think we've done pretty well considering what could have happened and in terms of relegated clubs who haven't bounced back we hold up very well, SO FAR. I can understand the frustration, I appreciate that we make mistakes and will continue to do so but we're doing a pretty good job of balancing trying financial times while remaining competitive. Ok we're not the best but we were within seconds of beaten Cardiff who many on this board aspire us to be like.

We could get left behind, but to me I applaud the way the club is trying to buck the trend rather then joining in with the looters running riot over a game with its finances in anarchy. We're not in the same boat as Bolton because we're not paying Madejski any money, his loans are just sitting there unlike the Bolton owner who's charging Bolton for the privilege.

[Ian Royal]

And you have to remember we are being held up as an example compared to how a lot of other clubs do. So whilst we may not be moving forward under those particular criteria Schards mentions we may well still be doing a lot better than most of the other clubs who come down and don't bounce back straight away - and to reiterate for the millionth time, we did try that and we were a whisker away from succeeding.

So clearly under those circumstances it is quite clear why we might be a model to hold up for how to react to getting relegated from the PL. It's also important to reiterate that as much as you may want to bitch about "financial blackholes" we're also very far from having been in the sort of financial trouble a lot of the other relagatees have been in.

I'd be interested to see a list of the 3 season finishes post relegation for all clubs relegated from the PL in the last 10 years - minus those who bounce straight back - and compare it to ours.

[under the tin]

I suppose that my biggest concern is that the last time we were at League 1 level, we had a chairman who kick started our rise up the league ladder by underwriting the losses, and funding player acquisitions.
Forster, Butler, Murty, etc.
We no longer have that chairman.

[ZacNaloen]

If he had the Cash to do it I'm sure he would.

That's the whole problem though isn't it?

[Wimb]

I suppose that my biggest concern is that the last time we were at League 1 level, we had a chairman who kick started our rise up the league ladder by underwriting the losses, and funding player acquisitions.
Forster, Butler, Murty, etc.
We no longer have that chairman.

I think the difference then was the sums involved in the time we were in. Money was pouring into the league from ITV Digital, transfer fees were Sky High and was the transfer window even in effect? Madejski could afford to underwrite a 750k fee, but now he'd have to invest 7 figures plus be prepared to fund the wages, signing on fees etc etc. If we'd signed Austin for £1.5 million we'd also have to commit say 10-15k a week over 3 years = £1.5m plus agent fee etc. Sadly it's just a different time

[PEARCEY]

I suppose that my biggest concern is that the last time we were at League 1 level, we had a chairman who kick started our rise up the league ladder by underwriting the losses, and funding player acquisitions.
Forster, Butler, Murty, etc.
We no longer have that chairman.

...and Evers. Madejski was certainly willing to splash a lot of money out on new ignings in those days. Those days are long gone I'm afraid.

[under the tin]

And you have to remember we are being held up as an example compared to how a lot of other clubs do. So whilst we may not be moving forward under those particular criteria Schards mentions we may well still be doing a lot better than most of the other clubs who come down and don't bounce back straight away - and to reiterate for the millionth time, we did try that and we were a whisker away from succeeding.

So clearly under those circumstances it is quite clear why we might be a model to hold up for how to react to getting relegated from the PL. It's also important to reiterate that as much as you may want to bitch about "financial blackholes" we're also very far from having been in the sort of financial trouble a lot of the other relagatees have been in.

I'd be interested to see a list of the 3 season finishes post relegation for all clubs relegated from the PL in the last 10 years - minus those who bounce straight back - and compare it to ours.

That measure, of course, circumnavigates other variables that are equally important in determining final league position, like changes in management. Had Brendan got us relegated, the comparison wouldn't add up to a hill of beans.

[Snowball]

I'd be interested to see a list of the 3 season finishes post relegation for all clubs relegated from the PL in the last 10 years - minus those who bounce straight back - and compare it to ours.



I looked at current positions and we were smack in the middle.


A lot crash through the divisions... Swindon, Bradford...

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

I'd be interested to see a list of the 3 season finishes post relegation for all clubs relegated from the PL in the last 10 years - minus those who bounce straight back - and compare it to ours.



I looked at current positions and we were smack in the middle.


A lot crash through the divisions... Swindon, Bradford...

Did Swindon or Bradford have the facilities that RFC have, or the crowds?

[Snowball]

I'd be interested to see a list of the 3 season finishes post relegation for all clubs relegated from the PL in the last 10 years - minus those who bounce straight back - and compare it to ours.



I looked at current positions and we were smack in the middle.


A lot crash through the divisions... Swindon, Bradford...

Did Swindon or Bradford have the facilities that RFC have, or the crowds?

Not sure what your point is. Do RFC have the crowds and resources of Leeds?

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Leeds were not mentioned Bradford and Swindon were. Thats my comparison, but feel free to pizz off and find a load of stats so you can include Leeds