Oh, What A Lovely Defecit!

[Rob-Royal]

[Ah, the cut and thrust of intelligent debate. Oscar Wilde would be so proud .....[/quote]

Like being called a twat you mean....?

Oscar Wilde, he liked them too I believe![/quote]


when i called you a twat cos you said i licked jms arse you mean?

oooohh iii doooo apologise[/quote]

Look, enough of the ar$e puns already! Hampshire Royal doesn't like it and Svlad finds it all very terdious....!

Oh good come back on the other reply btw...'ox*ford off'.....class!

[brendywendy]

you started it!


youve been dragging this thread to the gutter from the very start young man.
you cant blame me when i join in damnit!

[facaldaqui]

I don't think "black hole" is a helpful term, because it sounds like something evil and uncontrollable. I just think that getting money in by selling players is anticipated in the budget. In other words, we set a budget that would go into the red if we didn't get moneys in for sales. On this basis, the fate of the Mills money is predictable, based on the way we've done business the last three seasons.

When Brian says that he won't be spending the Mills money on players, that may be true: but clearly he has other money to spend on players, left over from the previous year's budget. Because he said he would seek to bring a defender in. But I think he was already going to do that whether Mills went or not, since he has lost Khizanishvili and Ingimarsson. (I've a feeling that where he sliiped up was that he'd assumed he could sign Khizanishvili at will.)

[Svlad Cjelli]

When Brian says that he won't be spending the Mills money on players, that may be true: but clearly he has other money to spend on players, left over from the previous year's budget. .....

What's more Brian is wrong. He will be spending the Mills money on players. Not on buying them, though - on paying wages to the other players to keep them at the club.

People seem to be forgetting that the reason we make a defect each season is the level of wages in football that we have to pay - while at the same time they call for us to pay players more all the time.

[BR2]

Just three points not directly linked with the overall discussion.
(1)As Vision and a number of others have said in the past the PR that emanates from the club is often poor.
Why did we have to get the manager coming out and saying that we have sold one of our better players for quite a lot of money but he is not allowed to spend any of it.
That is just so negative-why not say nothing?
Al it does is to get fans wondering,worrying and debating whether our club really does have serious financial problems as suggested by the Brighton fans.
Alex Ferguson having sold Ronaldo for £80 million didn't feel compelled to come out and say anything.

(2)When Harper's produced those figures about debt the very important missing factor when making comparisons is the value of non-fixed assets which in the case of football clubs means players.
Those Premier clubs have insured player assets worth hundreds of millions whereas clubs like ours just don't have such valuable assets and therefore cannot gamble so much on borrowing.
It therefore doesn't make any sense to compare a smallish Championship club with those in the Premier League.

(3) Last year we found out that our club had been incredibly badly run during the Premier years with ridiculous salaries etc so what makes people so confident that our club is now going to be well run this season and for the future relying almost exclusively on building a team from products of the academy?
It strikes me that is just as much of a gamble as borrowing money to buy players from other clubs that the manager believes could do a better job.

Of course what we think makes no difference to what the club does because even if people vote with their feet or rather without their money spent to go and watch our team the revenue stream from that source now apparently has no great significance despite the protestation of our chairman over the years telling us that we do need more and more through the gates.
I don't buy into RR's continuous Domesday scenarios as ,like the US economy,the whole show tends to roll on and on.
If it doesn't then as ours is the only well run club around we won't have anybody else left to play so would end up in administration anyway despite being so well run.

[Royal Rother]

When Brian says that he won't be spending the Mills money on players, that may be true: but clearly he has other money to spend on players, left over from the previous year's budget. .....

What's more Brian is wrong. He will be spending the Mills money on players. Not on buying them, though - on paying wages to the other players to keep them at the club.

People seem to be forgetting that the reason we make a defect each season is the level of wages in football that we have to pay - while at the same time they call for us to pay players more all the time.

Who was the defect we made last season? Antonio maybe?

[DOYLERSAROYALER]

When Brian says that he won't be spending the Mills money on players, that may be true: but clearly he has other money to spend on players, left over from the previous year's budget. .....

What's more Brian is wrong. He will be spending the Mills money on players. Not on buying them, though - on paying wages to the other players to keep them at the club.

People seem to be forgetting that the reason we make a defect each season is the level of wages in football that we have to pay - while at the same time they call for us to pay players more all the time.

Those wages are budgeted for surely, and are written into the players contracts...please dont tell me that Reading are now increasing the players wages in line with the RPI ???? ... we've let Ingi and Kish go and now Mills has left ....those wages alone are a big saving albeit Kishs would have been partly subsidised

[FiNeRaIn]

Unlike FineRain I do have a financial background so I do understand this stuff. I suppose it's because it's what I do / did that it makes sense to me.

But I can't do electrics, flat packs, DIY of any description, work on cars etc. etc. and it doesn't make any difference how long people spend explaining it to me it's like a different language, so I am equally as thick I suppose.

I should be more tolerant.

You can attempt to insult all you want, but it makes you look stupid yourself when you can't launch a counter argument to any of the points. You keep beating off on how no one else understands, yet you don't counter any of the hard facts. We have received the MOST in player sales out of the ENTIRE FOOTBALL LEAGUE AND HALF OF THE PREM in 3/4 years, why are you ignoring this fact. You don't need a background in finance to understand this simple sentence and then wonder why we are investing as poorly as we are. We were one of if not the lowest spending clubs to invest in the prem as a promoted team while we were there up until blackpool recently, I remember reading that in the Daily mail. We hardly invested anything in the playing squad compared to our rivals and we were relegated as a result. This is an absolute fact echoed by many pundits which talk about our relegation. We hardly spent anything on buying players in the prem when you supposedly get in the region of 90 million quid...we were there for two seasons. Instead we seemingly trebled the wages of players who weren't worth it and this has created these " black holes" that still prevent us today. We must have paid people like brynjar, hahnemann and harper an equal amount to frank lampard for that to be the case...that is simply bollox to put it bluntly. We then got years worth of parachute payments plus 37 million in player sales, add to whatever we get for long which will put it past 40 million. No other club in the football league has had this luxury, yet they manage to invest in their squads. How is everyone else managing to buy players yet the club who has received more in transfer fee's than any of them...can't? This is a world gone mad, its ridiculous. We are running ourselves like we are in administration with our buying policy. So the fact remains you can patronise people about your profession all you want, but all you need is common sense to understand that the severe lack of additions to our playing squad has put us where we are now, a selling club which invests minimal amounts in the team. Are you really waiting for everyone else to get docked points for overspending, hoping we might top the league as a result? Is that really the argument here?

[Svlad Cjelli]

They're not, no - but every time there is a new contract to keep someone (or increase the sale price!) their wages go up.

The "baseline" wage for a championship player is going up all the time and that drags the wage levels up over time.

And the fact they're budgeted means that we know in advance that we'll have a deficit because of them.

[Svlad Cjelli]

..... has put us where we are now, a selling club .....

Ermm, care to enlighten me on when we weren't a "selling club"?

[FiNeRaIn]

..... has put us where we are now, a selling club .....

Ermm, care to enlighten me on when we weren't a "selling club"?

You can answer the rest of the points first, then we'll come to that.

[Svlad Cjelli]

..... has put us where we are now, a selling club .....

Ermm, care to enlighten me on when we weren't a "selling club"?

You can answer the rest of the points first, then we'll come to that.

Well, for starters because we don't need to spend big. In fact our track record when we do spend big is feckin' awful, but our track record when we either develop or discover players and massively increase their value is unrivalled, and the envy of most other clubs.

But essentially you're focussing on just one side of the balance sheet with the transfer income figures - you're not looking at the level of expenditure or the low level on income from other sources (for instance the new Championship TV deal, which is down 26% on the last deal).

So before a ball is kicked we're £766K worse off this season than last - that's a player on £12 a week, taking employment costs into account.

[FiNeRaIn]

Well, for starters because we don't need to spend big. In fact our track record when we do spend big is feckin' awful, but our track record when we either develop or discover players and massively increase their value is unrivalled, and the envy of most other clubs.

But essentially you're focussing on just one side of the balance sheet with the transfer income figures - you're not looking at the level of expenditure or the low level on income from other sources (for instance the new Championship TV deal, which is down 26% on the last deal).

So before a ball is kicked we're £766K worse off this season than last - that's a player on £12 a week, taking employment costs into account.

We don't spend big often I think fae is the only one we can really point that finger at.

The level of expenditure should not be anywhere close to how much we received, there is simply no way we paid our players as much as frank lampard and it would have to be that high to get close to the 90 million for two years in the prem, plus 37 million in transfer fee's. It shouldn't even be a third as much as what we have got in. Just how much per season would our squad of players have to be on to get close to using all that money? Wages are by war the biggest outgoing of a football club.

[Hoop Blah]

Roughly speaking our wage bills from promotion to 09-10 are apparently;

05-06 = £12.5m
06-07 = £28m
07-08 = £31m
08-09 = £25m
09-10 = £18m

Plus my guess for last year at £13.5m

Total is almost £130m but I think we've ended up making a profit every year since we went up, largely because of those massive profits in the transfer market.

[Royal Rother]

Unlike FineRain I do have a financial background so I do understand this stuff. I suppose it's because it's what I do / did that it makes sense to me.

But I can't do electrics, flat packs, DIY of any description, work on cars etc. etc. and it doesn't make any difference how long people spend explaining it to me it's like a different language, so I am equally as thick I suppose.

I should be more tolerant.

You can attempt to insult all you want, but it makes you look stupid yourself when you can't launch a counter argument to any of the points. You keep beating off on how no one else understands, yet you don't counter any of the hard facts. We have received the MOST in player sales out of the ENTIRE FOOTBALL LEAGUE AND HALF OF THE PREM in 3/4 years, why are you ignoring this fact. You don't need a background in finance to understand this simple sentence and then wonder why we are investing as poorly as we are. We were one of if not the lowest spending clubs to invest in the prem as a promoted team while we were there up until blackpool recently, I remember reading that in the Daily mail. We hardly invested anything in the playing squad compared to our rivals and we were relegated as a result. This is an absolute fact echoed by many pundits which talk about our relegation. We hardly spent anything on buying players in the prem when you supposedly get in the region of 90 million quid...we were there for two seasons. Instead we seemingly trebled the wages of players who weren't worth it and this has created these " black holes" that still prevent us today. We must have paid people like brynjar, hahnemann and harper an equal amount to frank lampard for that to be the case...that is simply bollox to put it bluntly. We then got years worth of parachute payments plus 37 million in player sales, add to whatever we get for long which will put it past 40 million. No other club in the football league has had this luxury, yet they manage to invest in their squads. How is everyone else managing to buy players yet the club who has received more in transfer fee's than any of them...can't? This is a world gone mad, its ridiculous. We are running ourselves like we are in administration with our buying policy. So the fact remains you can patronise people about your profession all you want, but all you need is common sense to understand that the severe lack of additions to our playing squad has put us where we are now, a selling club which invests minimal amounts in the team. Are you really waiting for everyone else to get docked points for overspending, hoping we might top the league as a result? Is that really the argument here?

You took my post as being insulting? I thought it had more than a soupcon of self-deprecation actually...

So the question is still "Where has all the money gone" eh?

Look, the financials have been explained dozens of times.

There's no point in anyone regurgitating the answers given all over again, because the doubters refuse to believe them, or are incapable of understanding them.

Sorry, that might sound horribly patronising but it really is as simple as that.

[brendywendy]

(3) Last year we found out that our club had been incredibly badly run during the Premier years with ridiculous salaries etc so what makes people so confident that our club is now going to be well run this season and for the future relying almost exclusively on building a team from products of the academy?

lol!

ridiculous salarys?we could insist on paying lague 2 salaries and see where that gets us.


we had a below average wage bill in the prem.
& would we have gained a top half prem finish if we'd only payed championship wages, and half our players had walked out as a result?

[Svlad Cjelli]

(3) Last year we found out that our club had been incredibly badly run during the Premier years with ridiculous salaries etc so what makes people so confident that our club is now going to be well run this season and for the future relying almost exclusively on building a team from products of the academy?

lol!

ridiculous salarys?we could insist on paying lague 2 salaries and see where that gets us.


we had a below average wage bill in the prem.
& would we have gained a top half prem finish if we'd only payed championship wages, and half our players had walked out as a result?

Brendy - you're wrong - or you're understating it, at least. We had the lowest wage bill in the PL in our second season there.

[brendywendy]

We have received the MOST in player sales out of the ENTIRE FOOTBALL LEAGUE AND HALF OF THE PREM in 3/4 years, why are you ignoring this fact.

- this is our business plan. other teams do it through benefactors, or racking up huge laons/debts, we do it by selling a player or 5 every year.

We hardly invested anything in the playing squad compared to our rivals and we were relegated as a result. This is an absolute fact.

but we hardly invested in the playing squad when we finished on 106 points, or just missed out on europe either.
therefore there isnt correlation.


We hardly spent anything on buying players in the prem when you supposedly get in the region of 90 million quid...we were there for two seasons.

its 90 million now.with a new premiere league TV deal
it was much lower then. (30-60 million?)
regardless of all of that- the income, and outgoings from the prem years are available. go look at em. its all in there



Instead we seemingly trebled the wages of players who weren't worth it and this has created these " black holes" that still prevent us today. We must have paid people like brynjar, hahnemann and harper an equal amount to frank lampard for that to be the case...that is simply bollox to put it bluntly.

bollox indeed.
we doubled our wage bill when we went up, and this left us well in the bottom half of payers in the prem. those players were rewarded for getting us to the prem on record points, and then keeping us there on a record finish. LOL at them not being worth it.
also if we hadnt have payed them, theyd all have gone elsewhere, and we wouldnt have had a chance of staying up.


We then got years worth of parachute payments plus 37 million in player sales, add to whatever we get for long which will put it past 40 million. No other club in the football league has had this luxury, yet they manage to invest in their squads. How is everyone else managing to buy players yet the club who has received more in transfer fee's than any of them...can't?

its no good just stating the player sales figures when our income comes from other places too, and you arent even looking at the outgoings.which is why people cant be arsed to answer every one of your lots demented posts.
also remember we had fewer parachute payments, for less money than they get now.
the answer to the final Q is that they are all doing it through rich benefactors, or huge debts.

This is a world gone mad, its ridiculous.

yes, yes it is.

We are running ourselves like we are in administration with our buying policy. So the fact remains you can patronise people about your profession all you want, but all you need is common sense to understand that the severe lack of additions to our playing squad has put us where we are now, a selling club which invests minimal amounts in the team. Are you really waiting for everyone else to get docked points for overspending, hoping we might top the league as a result? Is that really the argument here?


LOL- its not lack of additions to our squad that has put us where we are now. if wed have bought loads of extra expensive players wed be in even more shit.
youre not making any sense at all.

[brendywendy]

(3) Last year we found out that our club had been incredibly badly run during the Premier years with ridiculous salaries etc so what makes people so confident that our club is now going to be well run this season and for the future relying almost exclusively on building a team from products of the academy?

lol!

ridiculous salarys?we could insist on paying lague 2 salaries and see where that gets us.


we had a below average wage bill in the prem.
& would we have gained a top half prem finish if we'd only payed championship wages, and half our players had walked out as a result?

Brendy - you're wrong - or you're understating it, at least. We had the lowest wage bill in the PL in our second season there.

i was deliberately understating it cos i wasnt sure. so i put below average just to be sure.

[Hoop Blah]

Brendy - you're wrong - or you're understating it, at least. We had the lowest wage bill in the PL in our second season there.

Don't think that's quite true Dirk.

We had one of the lowest but even that was only a few million £s from being 4 or 5 places higher (ie a couple of decent players).