Is Administration A Bad Thing?

[Big Foot]

Administration's been disastrous for Plymouth.

The question is whether you think bankruptcy is a worthwhile price to pay for the brief thrill of having a spree on money that doesn't belong to you. We could all max out a load of credit cards and live like kings for a bit, before the grim days of living on a shoestring begin. Some might say it's worth it just to live like someone wealthier for once in your life. That would not suit me and it wouldn't suit me if some wide boys took Reading over and took us into cloud cuckoo land for a couple of seasons before leaving us neutered, like Pompey. Administration is not only a bad thing for the fact that it means the sterile and depressing spectacle of watching a team that's been deducted points, but because the soul of the club is gutted as loyal staff go unpaid and then are sacked.

^This

As great as it'd be to see Reading in Europe in 3 seasons time, I'd rather wait 15-20 years if it meant achieving it through proper means.

[Extended-Phenotype]

There goes what was previously a very sensible, rational and well-argued thread.

You forgot to mention 'interesting' and 'fresh'.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

One thing that I think is clear is that the current punishments, which are even more severe in the non-league game, do very little to deter people from gambling with clubs' futures.

What we really need is something in place that stops clubs getting into debt in the first place. If you remove the ability for a club to be successful through "gambling" then it removes the incentive to do it.


Overall though, I'd agree with the comments about fans having unrealistic expectations - and it's certainly not just here. Too many fans want success, and they want it this season, and anything less isn't acceptable.


I think clubs make a bit of a rod for their own back by the lack of transparancy in the acounts. In sports in the US, you can buy the matchday programme, and it'll list the exact salary of every single player. If fans could see exactly how much money is coming in and going out, they'd be rather less like to accuse people of taking money out of clubs. There would be no fans singing "where's the money gone?" if the accounts showed that detail exactly.

[Jackson Corner]

I can't help thinking that Portsmouth won the FA Cup by cheating. They spent money that they didn't have. Having gone into administration should they not have been made to give it back?

You could also argue ourselves and several other clubs were relegated on the back of Pompeys cheating. Derby may have had the worst team in history but they have never gone in to administration. Pompey ran up debts of 150 million pounds put several local companies out of busines, and yet here they are buying in players like Benjani, Lawrence, Halford and Kitson whilst we have to take a gamble on an unproven 350 grand striker from div two. So to answer the thread the answer is NO administration is not a bad thing.

[Svlad Cjelli]

So to answer the thread the answer is NO administration is not a bad thing.

Perhaps the question ought to be "Is administration a bad enough thing?".

To which the answer is no, but it's getting worse all the time as awareness of this increases - and what happens when Football Creditors Rule goes away will make it even worse, probably.

[Mr Angry]

In my opinion, Administration is a disaster; its not just the 10 point deduction (which would probably mean relegation), but the fact that we would have cheated. If others want to behave that way, let them get on with it, but buying players with money you don't have and can't pay back is financial doping and I'd rather my club didn't indulge in it thank you very much.

I appreciate that some people may think its a price worth paying, but I'm truly shocked at the short sighted attitude exhibited by some on here, in the same way I was shocked at the total lack of shame or any sense of deja vu shown by Leicester fans over their splurging of cash this Summer, despite their administration a few years ago.....frankly, I'd prefer to stay in the Championship with dignity, rather than prostitute myself to some dodgy "businessman/money launderer/drug dealer" in the hope that we get to the "Promised Land" (copyright - the Premier League).

[under the tin]

For me, administration does not affect those who are ultimately at the root of the problem.
Transfer fees just provide the headlines.
If a club pays, say, £4 Million for a player, then it can be argued that is what that player's market value is, and it would not be unreasonable for that club to work on the basis that if they were to sell that player on, then they would get most of, or all of that money back, or even make a profit. (all things being equal, no bad injuries, etc.)

However, the real problem lies with the obscene wage demands that footballers make these days.
Pompey decided not to pay their electricity bill, and the St. John's ambulance because they decided to give what money they had available to pay unsustainable wages to greedy footballers.
When the taxman, and the other creditors start circling, these same greedy footballers just bugger off and milk another club.
Administration seldom hurts those who are the actual cause of the problem.

The footballers see the golden egg, and they all want as much of it as they can get. Sadly, they can't see that they are slowly suffocating the Goose that lays those eggs.
The game is sick, and that is why I have decided not to renew my season ticket. In the 40 odd years that I have attended, most of that time has been about enjoying my club grow. Nowadays, it's about giving nearly 500 quid a year, plus overpriced merchandising and catering, just so people like Matt Mills can swan around in an Audi R8.
See you at Bracknell, Svlad.

[RoyalBlue]

On balance, I would rather have lived through Portsmouth last four years than ours

Come on, you serious? I would be ashamed to be fan of a club run like that.

If you are looking to support a club on the basis of its ethics, you are going to go a long way to find one that's squeaky clean. Didn't Reading refuse to write off a few hundred quid owed by Exeter to save them from administration? Didn't they renage on a contractual payment to a player on some technicality or other? Don't we have our fair share of divers?

Shame, outrage, pride, disgust, anger. They are all strong emotions, watching a club prioritise blandly financially ticking over doesn't generate these and without them football ceases to be the outlet and the escapism it should be.

As well as the examples you give, IIRC, there was also the incident with another club (York?) where we claimed we no longer had to make a payment under a deal because we had signed up the player concerned to a new contract.

[Z175]

Depends on the club. An up and coming club that overspends is highly likely to end up reincarnated and in non league.

An established, potentially profitable one can get away with it.

Ourselves and nearly extinct Plymouth fit into the first category.

Pompey and Leics the second.

[Woodcote Royal]

In my opinion, Administration is a disaster; its not just the 10 point deduction (which would probably mean relegation), but the fact that we would have cheated. If others want to behave that way, let them get on with it, but buying players with money you don't have and can't pay back is financial doping and I'd rather my club didn't indulge in it thank you very much.

I appreciate that some people may think its a price worth paying, but I'm truly shocked at the short sighted attitude exhibited by some on here, in the same way I was shocked at the total lack of shame or any sense of deja vu shown by Leicester fans over their splurging of cash this Summer, despite their administration a few years ago.....frankly, I'd prefer to stay in the Championship with dignity, rather than prostitute myself to some dodgy "businessman/money launderer/drug dealer" in the hope that we get to the "Promised Land" (copyright - the Premier League).

Amen to that!!

However, I believe what really irks some of our fans about Pompey is not the clubs financial state but more their own inability to sit in one of the seats in the Fratton away end

On a slightly more serious note, as someone who rarely sits in his seat these days, had I been a Portsmouth supporter I would have given it up years ago.

A few weeks ago I was just as incensed as others to find ourselves facing a team we can no longer afford and belonging to a club who should have been either, removed from the league or, had multi relegations forced upon it in order to maintain its status.

As a Reading fan I can hold my head high and I don't want that to change regardless of the rewards that may be awaiting us on the dark side.

We have many fans who are totally convinced that we were relegated through lack of funds rather than by a manager who elected not to spend the funds at his disposal and I believe this clouds the judgement of many when responding to questions like this.

The fact is, we are the record holders for the best season ever in the 2nd tier and we followed it up with a stunning 8th place in the top flight. This was achieved whilst playing with a financially straight bat and none of the disgusting malpractices over many years by the likes of Portsmouth and their various owners has allowed these clubs to better us.

We have shown that it's possible to compete with the best without running our club in a manner that would impress the mafia. Therefore, we should be fighting tooth and nail to ensure that the league and FA finally grow a spine and keep the likes of Pompey a million miles from the top of our game until they get their house in order and keep it that for a considerable period of time.

[MmmMonsterMunch]

Yes we might have done well in 05-07 but sadly the Premier League has been on even more steroids since then. The money being spent has got completely out of hand.

[Woodcote Royal]

Since when we've beaten, amongst others, Liverpool (twice) Everton and West Brom.

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

For me, administration does not affect those who are ultimately at the root of the problem.
Transfer fees just provide the headlines.
If a club pays, say, £4 Million for a player, then it can be argued that is what that player's market value is, and it would not be unreasonable for that club to work on the basis that if they were to sell that player on, then they would get most of, or all of that money back, or even make a profit. (all things being equal, no bad injuries, etc.)

However, the real problem lies with the obscene wage demands that footballers make these days.
Pompey decided not to pay their electricity bill, and the St. John's ambulance because they decided to give what money they had available to pay unsustainable wages to greedy footballers.
When the taxman, and the other creditors start circling, these same greedy footballers just bugger off and milk another club.
Administration seldom hurts those who are the actual cause of the problem.

The footballers see the golden egg, and they all want as much of it as they can get. Sadly, they can't see that they are slowly suffocating the Goose that lays those eggs.
The game is sick, and that is why I have decided not to renew my season ticket. In the 40 odd years that I have attended, most of that time has been about enjoying my club grow. Nowadays, it's about giving nearly 500 quid a year, plus overpriced merchandising and catering, just so people like Matt Mills can swan around in an Audi R8.
See you at Bracknell, Svlad.

Very well put UtT.

My only regret is that this bubble shows no signs of bursting yet. And to have the maximum effect, it needs to burst at the highest level.

I have a colleague of mine who I have known for 23 years. He's a Man City fan through and through (rightly, as he was born in the area of Manchester in which they were founded). Up until Shiniwatra became their saviour, he was one of us that couldn't wait for the playing field to be levelled. Now he couldn't give a flying one about the rest of the game. For a man of good morals, he has taken a huge dose of selective blindness about the human rights issues surrounding Shiniwatra (not to mention theft of the nation's money when they could least afford it) and has equal disdain for those who, like me, question the validity of their current owners. Now he's one of "the elite few", he's of the view that everything's perfect. It's people like him perpetuating the myth that have put me off this game to the point that I doubt I'll go to see RFC more than twice this year. I know this penalises the club I love more than any other, but what is the point when the game is being structured to a class model that makes evn English history look like a paragon of equality.

[Pseud O'Nym]

Amazes me that people talk about Pompey and ignore the fact they cost us taxpayers C. £40 million. Are we all happy that we subsidised their cup final?

[Victor Meldrew]

I was listening to somebody the other day going on about how the French capitulated during WW2 and how we English would have put up more of a fight.
How does anybody know how the populus would react to a massively superior invasion force?
Likewise with RFC-how would fans react if we did a Leicester or a Pompey?
Woodcote says that he would have walked away but surely fans are fans of the club and not the owner or the board?

When all the Maxwell business was going on at our club I wondered whether I would carry on following our revamped team and on balance thought that I would have done because it would have still been half of my team.
If the current chairman died and the club were sold to a shady foreign buyer or even if he did so whilst still alive I don't think I would be getting on my horse about whether that buyer were a decent chap or not.
I feel sure that our current chairman and previous chairmen particularly with their involvement in the dodgy world of property and land dealings are from being whiter than white as some people on here think they are.

The football fan has very little say or influence on how and by whom their favourite club is run so I take the view that we are stuck with our lot in life as observers hoping to be entertained in exchange for paying out quite a lot of money and although we like to debate affairs of the club on sites like this I don't care too much about the people who run the club nor the mercenaries that come and play for our club.
I do find some of the earlier posters a bit sanctimonious and can't understand why they can't accept that our club,just like all the others,is run by people who may not be the most pleasant and have players who you wouldn't welcome in your house nor want to spend any time with but whilst involved with our club receive great support when out there on the pitch.

[Ian Royal]

Yes, it's a bad thing to write off most of your debts and effectively cheat your way to success. One of the reasons I support the club is because I am proud of the comparatively ethical way in which it is run and operates in general.

We're by no means squeeky clean, but we're amongst the best and there's only so much you can practically do with the majority dodgy as feck, whilst staying competitive. The last few years have been both difficult and fantastic. It's rarely dull supporting Reading IMO.

[RoyalBlue]

In my opinion, Administration is a disaster; its not just the 10 point deduction (which would probably mean relegation), but the fact that we would have cheated. If others want to behave that way, let them get on with it, but buying players with money you don't have and can't pay back is financial doping and I'd rather my club didn't indulge in it thank you very much.

Gambling on making your business successful by incurring debt and possibly facing the risk of administration is not illegal, it's not immoral nor is it cheating. I suspect many very successful business men have done that at some stage as they sought to establish/grow their empires. And how many people have taken the risk of a bigger mortgage than perhaps was sensible.

It only becomes illegal/immoral/cheating if you incur that debt with no intention of paying it back or knowing damn well that you won't have the means to do so.

Putting your business into administration in order to get away from the debts isn't illegal either, albeit it might leave a bad taste in the mouths of many and is likely to have numerous innocent victims who suffer as a consequence. For that blame the politicians/legislators and in the case of football the game's administrators.

Is administration a bad thing in football? Not for those who gain advantage by working within the rules as they currently stand. If we all want to compete in a lily white league then we shouldn't be involved in professional football in this country. If we want to 'compete effectively' (Madejski's words) in the league(s) that we are in, then I'm afraid we probably have to play by the same rules as the rest, unless and until we can get those rules changed.

BTW, an ethics debate on a football forum?!! Who says football supporters are a rough old lot?!

[FiNeRaIn]

For me, administration does not affect those who are ultimately at the root of the problem.
Transfer fees just provide the headlines.
If a club pays, say, £4 Million for a player, then it can be argued that is what that player's market value is, and it would not be unreasonable for that club to work on the basis that if they were to sell that player on, then they would get most of, or all of that money back, or even make a profit. (all things being equal, no bad injuries, etc.)

However, the real problem lies with the obscene wage demands that footballers make these days.
Pompey decided not to pay their electricity bill, and the St. John's ambulance because they decided to give what money they had available to pay unsustainable wages to greedy footballers.
When the taxman, and the other creditors start circling, these same greedy footballers just bugger off and milk another club.
Administration seldom hurts those who are the actual cause of the problem.

The footballers see the golden egg, and they all want as much of it as they can get. Sadly, they can't see that they are slowly suffocating the Goose that lays those eggs.
The game is sick, and that is why I have decided not to renew my season ticket. In the 40 odd years that I have attended, most of that time has been about enjoying my club grow. Nowadays, it's about giving nearly 500 quid a year, plus overpriced merchandising and catering, just so people like Matt Mills can swan around in an Audi R8.
See you at Bracknell, Svlad.

What a great post.

[under the tin]

In my opinion, Administration is a disaster; its not just the 10 point deduction (which would probably mean relegation), but the fact that we would have cheated. If others want to behave that way, let them get on with it, but buying players with money you don't have and can't pay back is financial doping and I'd rather my club didn't indulge in it thank you very much.

Gambling on making your business successful by incurring debt and possibly facing the risk of administration is not illegal, it's not immoral nor is it cheating. I suspect many very successful business men have done that at some stage as they sought to establish/grow their empires. And how many people have taken the risk of a bigger mortgage than perhaps was sensible.

It only becomes illegal/immoral/cheating if you incur that debt with no intention of paying it back or knowing damn well that you won't have the means to do so.

Putting your business into administration in order to get away from the debts isn't illegal either, albeit it might leave a bad taste in the mouths of many and is likely to have numerous innocent victims who suffer as a consequence. For that blame the politicians/legislators and in the case of football the game's administrators.

Is administration a bad thing in football? Not for those who gain advantage by working within the rules as they currently stand. If we all want to compete in a lily white league then we shouldn't be involved in professional football in this country. If we want to 'compete effectively' (Madejski's words) in the league(s) that we are in, then I'm afraid we probably have to play by the same rules as the rest, unless and until we can get those rules changed.

BTW, an ethics debate on a football forum?!! Who says football supporters are a rough old lot?!

For me, FWIW, this is not an ethics debate.
It's about whether my beloved football team can survive, given the current climate.
For me, the "movement" (to use an old fashioned trade union term) is far more important than the current itinerants.
It should not be forgotten that without the big money player sales, (to use FineRain's numbers), our "well run club" would be another £40 million quid up the swanny, without a dodgy foreigner to do a runner when things get tough.
Is our club REALLY any better run than say, Wet Sham?
Silly wages = turn off for me.
Here endeth.

[Svlad Cjelli]

For me, FWIW, this is not an ethics debate.
It's about whether my beloved football team can survive, given the current climate.
For me, the "movement" (to use an old fashioned trade union term) is far more important than the current itinerants.
It should not be forgotten that without the big money player sales, (to use FineRain's numbers), our "well run club" would be another £40 million quid up the swanny, without a dodgy foreigner to do a runner when things get tough.
Is our club REALLY any better run than say, Wet Sham?
Silly wages = turn off for me.
Here endeth.

I think that our beloved football club have found the only possible way they can survive, given the current climate. We have neither the rich, stupid/immoral owner with bottomless pockets or the massive crowd-base that will let us compete in the financial pissing race that other clubs are in at the moment.

If we try to do that, it's a battle we'll inevitably lose - and lose badly. There are more people doing it than there are , and doing it with much deeper reservoirs of cash than we could ever hope to have - a single year's parachute payments are twice as much as our total income, for instance!

So if we can't win a battle of spending more money, all we can do is spend our money better and more efficiently than anyone else - and we do have an absolutely superb track-record of doing that. True, it may not always continue, but spending wisely rather than spending big really is the only weapon we have in our arsenal.

But the world is changing - slowly but surely football (and government) is moving closer to our way of doing things, and rejecting Portsmouth's way of doing it.