McDermott via TalkSport

[ZacNaloen]

Compass must make so little out of us that they don't even include us in their "sporting venues".

http://www.compass-group.co.uk/sport-venues.htm

Back to the other part of the discussion, I'm pretty sure Kebe will be gone in January - and we might get £2-3million for him if we're very lucky, Gorkss could be gone at the end of the season, imo, if we have a "meh" season and if he continues to be the standout player at RFC.

He'd have to start first

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

As for having a cap, it is more likely that it would be based on what PERCENTAGE of turnover can be spent on player wages. This is what is in place in the lower leagues at a level of aorund 65% (I can't remember exactly) but we aren't too far from that now.

Further digging about suggests the average in this division is more like 85-90%.

There might be a theoretical turnover cap in the lower divisions, but as there don't seem to be any punishments at all for breaking that cap, it seems a little toothless.

One thing we lack here that US sports have is the ability to "cut" players. If they sign a players who turns out to be a dud, or if they want to get rid of players to give them more room in their overall cap, they can just terminate the contracts of players.

[Wycombe Royal]

As for having a cap, it is more likely that it would be based on what PERCENTAGE of turnover can be spent on player wages. This is what is in place in the lower leagues at a level of aorund 65% (I can't remember exactly) but we aren't too far from that now.

Further digging about suggests the average in this division is more like 85-90%.

There might be a theoretical turnover cap in the lower divisions, but as there don't seem to be any punishments at all for breaking that cap, it seems a little toothless.

One thing we lack here that US sports have is the ability to "cut" players. If they sign a players who turns out to be a dud, or if they want to get rid of players to give them more room in their overall cap, they can just terminate the contracts of players.

The cap in League Two is 60% and when Notts County broke it they were given a transfer embargo. However it didn't make much difference as they still won the league. However this is still in its infancy and in League One I think it is still voluntary.

As for US employment laws, they operate like that outside of football/sport as well. It is very easy for US companies to fire employees as they don't have the same protections in place that we have. In countries like Germany and France it is even worse.

[Greatwesternline]

This thread as many others do, has gone over and over the money behind the scene's which "we don't get to see"

If you want to see them, go to this website: http://www.levelbusiness.com/company_se ... ball+Club+ and look at the accounts.

It's all there. If this link doesn't work (but i'm 99% certian it will) then sorry, but if it does work would everyone stop bleating about how we can't see the figures.

techy point, amortisation of players contracts is how a club 'pays@ for buying players, you spread the cost of the contract value over the years of the contract, and this is a non cash expense in the income statement.

That may help

[Cypry]

This thread as many others do, has gone over and over the money behind the scene's which "we don't get to see"

If you want to see them, go to this website: http://www.levelbusiness.com/company_se ... ball+Club+ and look at the accounts.

It's all there. If this link doesn't work (but i'm 99% certian it will) then sorry, but if it does work would everyone stop bleating about how we can't see the figures.

techy point, amortisation of players contracts is how a club 'pays@ for buying players, you spread the cost of the contract value over the years of the contract, and this is a non cash expense in the income statement.

That may help

Cracking link there - never noticed the breakdown of staff/salaries in note 7 of the accounts before....

For those who can't be bothered to look...

Staff numbers and costs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2010---------------2009
The average number of persons employed by the group, including
directors was as follows:

------Players------------------------------------------------------------------------------35-----------------42
------Football management and coaching staff---------------------------------------53-----------------56
------Administrative staff---------------------------------------------------------------95-----------------99
------Hotel, bar and catering staff-----------------------------------------------------66-----------------66
------Staff employed under government training schemes--------------------------22-----------------22
------Matchday staff--------------------------------------------------------------------220----------------195
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------___----------------___
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------491----------------480

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The aggregate payroll costs of these persons were as follows-------------------2010---------------2009
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------£------------------£
------Gross wages and salaries-----------------------------------------------17,799,225---------24,613,174
------Social security costs-------------------------------------------------------2,233,341----------2,935,802
------Pension costs------------------------------------------------------------------94,868------------185,665
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------__________---------__________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------20,127,434---------27,734,641

Directors' renumeration (including pension contributions) was as
follows:

------Directors' emoluments--------------------------------------------------------------0------------------0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------_------------------_


There it is in black and white - a TOTAL bill of £17M net on salaries.
One thing to note as well is that these figures are from the 2010 accounts (i.e. the season before last when McD took over from Rodgers), and we've offloaded a few high earners in the interim period.
If you reckon on a bill of £13-14M for players salaries I shouldn't think you'd be far wrong, but I think it's highly misleading to just take an average and apply it across the whole squad of 35 (£7600 per week per player).
It's much easier to see where the salaries might be spent if you try to make an estimated distribution across the players to take into account high earners, something like:

Number of players-----------------------Weekly Salary
-------4-------------------------------------£15000
-------6-------------------------------------£12000
-------1-------------------------------------£10000
-------8-------------------------------------£8000
-------8-------------------------------------£5000
-------8-------------------------------------£3000
------__----------------------------------________
------35----------------------------------£270,000


Obviously that's only a stab in the dark, but it gives an idea how a relatively small number of high earners can significantly skew the average per player...

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Except it was a total of £20mill net of wages with NI and pensions taken in to account

[Cypry]

Except it was a total of £20mill net of wages with NI and pensions taken in to account

Apologies- should have said gross - i.e. raw salaries not including NI and pensions...trying to do nine things at once this afternoon....

[Royal Rother]

amortisation of players contracts is how a club 'pays@ for buying players, you spread the cost of the contract value over the years of the contract, and this is a non cash expense in the income statement.

That may help

It won't help at all I'm afraid.

I have explained that very point on every previous thread of "where's the money gone" and such like during the last 18 months but nobody (who doesn't want to) gets it.

[Ian Royal]

I wonder if the usual suspects will pay any attention to the details provided there. Or just go quiet again for a bit until they can pretend the information doesn't exist again.

Just for reference turnover in 2009 £25.7m, costs £38.1m. 2010 turnover £27.6m, costs £29.6m

So non-wage related costs seem relatively fixed at about £10m a year based on that.

[melonhead]

what do you reckon!

[Ian Royal]

what do you reckon!

I reckon I've got that post bookmarked to nip the next one in the bud. (fat chance)

[melonhead]

no chance- its like all conspiracys

produce the evidence and someone will always say - aha, but who came up with th efigures, eh? eh?

[Ian Royal]

no chance- its like all conspiracys

produce the evidence and someone will always say - aha, but who came up with th efigures, eh? eh?

They're worse than young earth creationist mongheads

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

What do the salaries of the reserve/youth players come under? We obviously have far more than 35 players registered in total.

That was for 2010, presumably covering the 2009/10 season. We wouldn't have got the £16.8M media income last season (or for this).

Maybe it could be argued that rather than "cutting our cloth" too much, in reality we didn't cut it enough, if breaking even was the goal.

Losing £12 million in parachute payments would take us down to around £16 million overall turnover. If our non-player costs can't be reduced, and are still running at £11 million, then we are pretty much screwed. It seems we need to be running at salaries of about £11 million and other costs at £5 million to break even. (going by the 65% salaries ideal)

We also look a lot closer to achieving that target on the playing side than the non-playing one.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

no chance- its like all conspiracys

produce the evidence and someone will always say - aha, but who came up with th efigures, eh? eh?

They're worse than young earth creationist mongheads

Is there is single post on this thread suggesting Madejski is pocketting the money, or anything similar?

[Royal Lady]

Compass must make so little out of us that they don't even include us in their "sporting venues".

http://www.compass-group.co.uk/sport-venues.htm

Back to the other part of the discussion, I'm pretty sure Kebe will be gone in January - and we might get £2-3million for him if we're very lucky, Gorkss could be gone at the end of the season, imo, if we have a "meh" season and if he continues to be the standout player at RFC.

He'd have to start first

Who are you talking about?

[brendywendy]

no chance- its like all conspiracys

produce the evidence and someone will always say - aha, but who came up with th efigures, eh? eh?

They're worse than young earth creationist mongheads

Is there is single post on this thread suggesting Madejski is pocketting the money, or anything similar?

wasnt particularly talking about this particular thread, in particluar.


imo if the positive side are allowed to be generalised about in terms of being up Jms arse etc, then i reckon its probably ok for us to generalise about the whingers too.

though i agree- neither really adds to the debate

[brendywendy]

Maybe it could be argued that rather than "cutting our cloth" too much, in reality we didn't cut it enough, if breaking even was the goal.

clearly, hence the black holes

what weve tried to do is reduce it year on year, while retaining many of our good players/buying new ones.

if wed gone all out after relegation imediately to do so id imagine relegation would have followed. instead theyve tried to ensure that over time the academy comes up to speed to take up the slack

as ever JM has steered a path midway between total ambition and total financial realism, which has basically been the point all along.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Maybe it could be argued that rather than "cutting our cloth" too much, in reality we didn't cut it enough, if breaking even was the goal.

clearly, hence the black holes

what weve tried to do is reduce it year on year, while retaining many of our good players/buying new ones.

if wed gone all out after relegation imediately to do so id imagine relegation would have followed. instead theyve tried to ensure that over time the academy comes up to speed to take up the slack

as ever JM has steered a path midway between total ambition and total financial realism, which has basically been the point all along.

The problem is that if (and how true this is, I couldn't say) we can't get our expenses below £11 million, we'll have to make up that £4 million shortfall every single year. That just isn't feasible.

It also means that if we did go down, we'd probably lose money even if the team agreed to play for nothing.


I would guess it must be below that level now, but I would like to know where that money goes.

[Ian Royal]

stadium, media centre, training ground, academy, policing, utilities, insurance, marketing etc etc etc

Costs really do mount up... I once worked for the MoD and half a dozen offices in East Anglia managed to spend £70k on stationary in a year for goodness sake. Mind you, we'll be a hell of a lot better run than they were.

But I expect we can cut it down when we have to. And afterall we can probably sustain a couple of season's of £4m losses if we have to. We've done it before afterall.