NO LONGER A RUMOUR - Karl Sheppard

[Bandini]

It took Shorey about 20 minutes into his first appearance to settle in the team and look like he belonged there.

Indeed. It took him another 2 or 3 seasons to be one of the best fullbacks outside the Premier League and to be a key player in a promotion winning team.

The subject is "how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’".

[Libertine]

leicester and ipswich both spent loads and brought loads of big and "proven" players in the summer

how are they both doing?


and yet this is the model these people aspire to, rather than the one thats proven to be succesful year on year here.

Who said anything about becoming big spenders? Just a modest investment in an impact player (hopefully up front or an attacking midfielder) at a critical junction of a potentially promising season is all most of us would like to see.

id say all of us would like to see it
most of us can see why it often doesnt happen
and a small but loud minority carry on constantly moaning

I'd agree if one considers questioning why the management of the club never does something so sensible "moaning".

[melonhead]

It takes a balance.
Sometimes that balance needs some experience and immediate quality added to it.
I think this side needs that and hopefully we'll see that in the next couple of weeks

hang on

ledge- expensive/proven
gorkss- expensive/proven
mcanuff-expensive/proven

nhunt- relatively pricey- proven now

griffin - cheap proven
harte -cheap proven

pearce - yoof product
karacan - yoof product
church - yoof product

alf- relatively expensive- unproven at this level
cummings - cheap - unproven- brought on
mills - cheap - semi proven at this level- brought on


if we want balance there- surely cheap nobodies is exactly what we are missing..........

[winchester_royal]

Good god, great post.

Sorry, but writing a player off based on a 1 minute youtube clip is a 'great post'?

Can you not read you moron. I specifically say I haven't written him off.

FFS.

Saying 'i'm not writing him off', and then going on to say how you don't think he'll be succesful and that he's not what we need is contradictory though.

I'd argue that if he turns out to be Doyle Mk. II then he will be exactly what we need, because our weakest area atm is up front, not in numbers but in quality.

Oh, and, you moron.

[melonhead]

Who said anything about becoming big spenders? Just a modest investment in an impact player (hopefully up front or an attacking midfielder) at a critical junction of a potentially promising season is all most of us would like to see.

id say all of us would like to see it
most of us can see why it often doesnt happen
and a small but loud minority carry on constantly moaning

I'd agree if one considers questioning why the management of the club never does something so sensible "moaning".

you are free to do as you will, i wouldnt put you down with floyd and fine rain anyway
and i did say constantly.


but imo if you carry on questioning in the face of the actual answers, and our continued success. its moaning

[Simon's Church]

Ah, finally a new topic of conversation on the team board...

[Extended-Phenotype]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead...

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

Ingi was proven, so that doesn’t fit the criteria. Sidwell and Harper were well ‘on radar’, came at a tasty price - the later came at what was described as a “substantial 6 figure fee”. Convey was expensive, so doesn’t fit the criteria either.

Hahnemann, Sonko and Little were free transfers so are hardly ‘investments’.

So you’ve found 3 if you discount the frees, 6 if you do. Add Long to that and you have 4 or 7 in over a decade.

Meh. Hardly a deathblow to my argument. I could rattle off a telephone directory of counter examples, of which I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sheppard’s name in seasons to come.

[melonhead]

Ah, finally a new topic of conversation on the team board...

[winchester_royal]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead:

Hahnemann: Cheap, relatively unproven in english game - From PL
Murts: Big money, fair enough
Ingi: Proven, but not expensive - proven being the crucial bit.
Sonko: Cheap, unproven - manager had worked with him before iirc
Shorey: Cheap, unproven - had been with us for years and took a while to come through benefit of the doubt for 1
Little: Free transfer - already very proven at our level, hardly comparable
Harps and Sids: Were both young, not proven at this level, and relatively cheap - both signed in the lower division iirc. Harper came from the Prem and Sidwell had proven himself at our level at the time. And Harper was not cheap.
Convey: Expensive, but not proven - so not comparable, established US international
Doyle: Cheap, unproven at this level - so that's 2
Kitson: Not expensive, unproven at this level - not particularly cheap either and didn't come straight into the side, but I'll give you the benefit for a third
Then we had the likes of Oster, Hunt, and Long all of whom were cheap and unproven at this level.

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

Interesting that you leave out Lita who was defintely not a cheap gamble. I make that less than 30% of the core squad who were cheap gambles. Well done.

Can you not read you moron?

I said 80% were either cheap or unproven.

Hahneman was cheap
Shorey was cheap
Ingi was cheap
Sonko was cheap and a gamble
Little was cheap
Convey was a gamble
Kits was cheap
Doyle cheap and a gamble
Long cheap and a gamble
Hunt cheap and a gamble
Oster cheap and a gamble
Makin was cheap
Stack was cheap.

Out of a 16 man match squad thats 12 who were either cheap or a gamble. Around 80%.

[Hoop Blah]

almost entirely

There was Lita (as you say)

i already said

As well as that there were Oster and Makin who, although free, were proven campaigners at our level and perfect fits for an already developed squad.

who were free and released by other clubs........

The implication I read into it due to the post you were responding to was that those free's were the similar unproven gambles such as the ones being discussed on thie thread.

Obviously Oster, Makin, Gunnarsson and to quite a lesser extent Hunt were proven at this level (Hunt was kind of proven to Coppell because of his prior knowledge). Perhaps that wasn't what you were getting at, but 30% of our signings that summer involved a fee and apparently 30% is a significant figure....

Don't forget, as we're always reminded by some on here, that just because a player comes without a fee to his previous club it doesn't mean they're coming to us without a hefty upfront cost.

[Libertine]

you are free to do as you will, i wouldnt put you down with floyd and fine rain anyway
and i did say constantly.


but imo if you carry on questioning in the face of the actual answers, and our continued success. its moaning

Was there an actual answer tho?

I like the business model per se you silly cat with a gourde on your head. I just think when the opportunity arises, because the results on the pitch have been good ones, I can't understand why there can't ever be even a small "roll of the dice".

[winchester_royal]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead...

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

Ingi was proven, so that doesn’t fit the criteria. Sidwell and Harper were well ‘on radar’, came at a tasty price - the later came at what was described as a “substantial 6 figure fee”. Convey was expensive, so doesn’t fit the criteria either.

Hahnemann, Sonko and Little were free transfers so are hardly ‘investments’.

So you’ve found 3 if you discount the frees, 6 if you do. Add Long to that and you have 4 or 7 in over a decade.

Meh. Hardly a deathblow to my argument. I could rattle off a telephone directory of counter examples, of which I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sheppard’s name in seasons to come.

Convey was a risk, completely unproven at this level. Just because he cost a bit more than Shep doesn't make it a better investment. .

[Hoop Blah]

It takes a balance.
Sometimes that balance needs some experience and immediate quality added to it.
I think this side needs that and hopefully we'll see that in the next couple of weeks

hang on

ledge- expensive/proven
gorkss- expensive/proven
mcanuff-expensive/proven

nhunt- relatively pricey- proven now

griffin - cheap proven
harte -cheap proven

pearce - yoof product
karacan - yoof product
church - yoof product

alf- relatively expensive- unproven at this level
cummings - cheap - unproven- brought on
mills - cheap - semi proven at this level- brought on


if we want balance there- surely cheap nobodies is exactly what we are missing..........

What I said was that we needed an injection of experience and quality (ie some attacking creativity). We need some experience and know how upfront because we currently have a lack of it and same with some composure and creativity in the middle. That's where I hope we'll see some more transfer activity before the end of the month.

[melonhead]

you are free to do as you will, i wouldnt put you down with floyd and fine rain anyway
and i did say constantly.


but imo if you carry on questioning in the face of the actual answers, and our continued success. its moaning

Was there an actual answer tho?

I like the business model per se you silly cat with a gourde on your head. I just think when the opportunity arises, because the results on the pitch have been good ones, I can't understand why there can't ever be even a small "roll of the dice".

lita, fae, halford, ledge, mcanuff, gorkss were all rolls of dice, both big and small

we also bid big for big players in second year of the prem- lescott, mensah, and scott brown for millions.
they all chose not to, which along with the failures of halford and fae is what led to this current policy
imo

[winchester_royal]

It takes a balance.
Sometimes that balance needs some experience and immediate quality added to it.
I think this side needs that and hopefully we'll see that in the next couple of weeks

hang on

ledge- expensive/proven
gorkss- expensive/proven
mcanuff-expensive/proven

nhunt- relatively pricey- proven now

griffin - cheap proven
harte -cheap proven

pearce - yoof product
karacan - yoof product
church - yoof product

alf- relatively expensive- unproven at this level
cummings - cheap - unproven- brought on
mills - cheap - semi proven at this level- brought on


if we want balance there- surely cheap nobodies is exactly what we are missing..........

What I said was that we needed an injection of experience and quality (ie some attacking creativity). We need some experience and know how upfront because we currently have a lack of it and same with some composure and creativity in the middle. That's where I hope we'll see some more transfer activity before the end of the month.

You might be right there.

However, how many experienced strikers are there who would come into Reading and actually be motivated? We don't want another Les Ferdinand.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a Jason Roberts or Agemang come in, but only if they want to play.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Winchesterroyal:

How does someone being expensive and unproven or cheap and proven help your cause? The point, in case you mised it, was to demonstrate cheap transfers on unknowns was a worthwhile strategy.

Hail to signing proven players! What sort of strategy is signing expensive nobodies?!

Fail.

Fact is, some of our best players have come at a price, including those in the current line-up.

[melonhead]

you are free to do as you will, i wouldnt put you down with floyd and fine rain anyway
and i did say constantly.


but imo if you carry on questioning in the face of the actual answers, and our continued success. its moaning

Was there an actual answer tho?

".

you said about

Just a modest investment in an impact player at a critical junction of a potentially promising season

&

if one considers questioning why the management of the club never does something so sensible "moaning

& id say we have done so (as listed),
within our financial means, on numerous occasions

[melonhead]

What I said was that we needed an injection of experience and quality (ie some attacking creativity). We need some experience and know how upfront because we currently have a lack of it and same with some composure and creativity in the middle. That's where I hope we'll see some more transfer activity before the end of the month.

id say the squad is chock full of experience and quality, that was my point

as for hoping we get a brilliant attacking midfielder and striker in before the window closes

i think we could all probably agree with that sentiment

[winchester_royal]

Winchesterroyal:

How does someone being expensive and unproven or cheap and proven help your cause? The point, in case you mised it, was to demonstrate cheap transfers on unknowns was a worthwhile strategy.

Hail to signing proven players! What sort of strategy is signing expensive nobodies?!

Fail.

Fact is, some of our best players have come at a price, including those in the current line-up.

And some of our best players have cost nothing. Our 3 best players in the last 5 years:

Doyle: Unknown from Ireland
Long: Unknown from Ireland
Sig: Unknown from Iceland.

I don't get your point at all tbh.

[Hoop Blah]

Experience and quality? Upfront, or even attacking from any part of the pitch?

At this level I'd say McAnuff and Kebe just about fit the profile (although I'd argue that Kebe doesn't and I don't expect him to be here for too much longer anyway, and I think plenty of others would raise question marks over McAnuff). Of our forwards the only one that gets near to being experienced and of sufficient quality is Noel Hunt, and we can't get him out on the pitch for more than 1 in 3 games so I'd personally rule him out.