Hillsborough

[FiNeRaIn]

One of your better posts Kes. Liverpool fans simply don't accept this as a point and start reacting angrily and claiming everyone is out of order, bla bla. The fact is the police were absolutely to blame along with the poor standard of the ground which wasn't safe, but completely removing responsibility to people piling in without tickets and causing the crush is just plain silly. I've heard suggestions from liverpool fans that this didn't take place and everyone had tickets, really is quite offensive. We know how things worked in those days.

[Friday's Legacy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElP8P6Pu ... re=related

3 mins on. the view of the ambulance man at the lep end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtRs-3jQmf8

football focus 20 yrs

"they opened the gates and just let us walk in". it was a cup semi, who here wouldn't have gone in?

the police should have directed the 2000 fans to the corners which were not full. instead they all went down the tunnel which is the first thing you see coming through the gates.

[leon]

I think the point is that the police were negligent to have opened the gates but Liverpool's fans habit of mobbing up and forcing by weight of numbers entry into games was a major factor in what happened. The fact that LFC fans don't accept their part in this speaks volumes.

[Super_horns]

No-one is going to accept blame are they...might as well move on to an extent and let those who died rest in peace.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Tell me where I'm wrong..

What set of supporters trampled on their own fans & consequently killed a fair few?..

Get up in arms all you want, it's what happened.

...except the "trampled" part, as that didn't happen at all. There was no stampede at hillsborough.

[Mr Angry]

Tell me where I'm wrong..

What set of supporters trampled on their own fans & consequently killed a fair few?..

Get up in arms all you want, it's what happened.

I think you'll find it's both the police's fault and some Liverpool fans fault m8. Police should never have opened the gate, but then there shouldn't have been loads of pissed up Liverpool fans outside the ground without tickets trying to break in. The poor fans inside who were crushed were, I suspect legitimately there.

The majority of Liverpool fans and the club itself WILL NOT accept responsibility on behalf of the perpetrators that fateful day, In their eyes it's ONLY the police's fault.

We all have a social responsibility when we're out in public to act in a proper manner and some LIverpool fans didn't. This is a FACT.

and to repeat something I've said before......

You cannot say what I've just said above without LIverpool fans saying 'You're bang out of order'.

If you are fishing Kes, you have caught me, cos I actually agree with everything you have said in this post; add to this the default position of people from Liverpool, which appears to be that they are, as a City, VICTIMS, and frankly, whilst it was a tragedy and I feel, both on a human as well as a fellow football fan level, huge sympathy for those who died and their families, you get the feeling that the Liverpool fans actual wallow in their self pity over this; far more so than say, Rangers fans over the Ibrox tragedy, Bradford fans over Valley Parade, or, dare I say it Juventus fans over Heysel.

[PieEater]

Their anger is due to the attempted cover up by the Police, the flawed terms of reference for the enquiry, and total lack of accountability for those that made mistakes. Something not a factor in the other tragedies you mention.

The tragedy was not caused by too many fans being there. It was caused by too many fans being funnelled down a tunnel to one particular pen.

[Dare to Dr£am]

Tell me where I'm wrong..

What set of supporters trampled on their own fans & consequently killed a fair few?..

Get up in arms all you want, it's what happened.

...except the "trampled" part, as that didn't happen at all. There was no stampede at hillsborough.

Indeed. Those there have said that the crush carried people in all directions, their feet not touching the floor. People around them got lucky and were lead to a less crowded area, but others slipped down and under the feet of everyone else or were carried forward and crushed.

I find the whole thng very upsetting, and then you get idiots kids like rfcjoe who just want to mock what happened for cheap shots at Liverpool supporters. There's no need for it.

The Police should never have let them in. When they did they should have lead them to the corners as Friday's Legacy said. Instead the 2000 extra fans were all headed straight down the tunnel behind the goal where it was full.

Sure Liverpool fans have to accept some blame. They don't, but they should. As should the Police. Most certainly the Police.

Liverpool fans turned up in their thousands (2000 more than capacity) (and they were given the smaller stand. Forest had the Kop). Many though were just hoping for tickets on the day by those hoping to make a few bob; others said they just wanted to be near the ground to listen to what was happening on the pitch, take in the atmosphere, and have the wireless on at the same time. I can certainly understand that. If I couldn't get a ticket for Wembley, I know I'd do the same thing and still try and enjoy the day out!

The whole thing is very very sad, especially when young idiots like to use the tragedy to have a dig at oppo fans. While you think you're cool and getting one up on someone, all you're really doing is showing everyone what an idiot you are.

[rfcjoe]

See, people getting precious about it. I'm not simply 'taking a pop at Liverpool fans'. I'm saying if the Liverpool fans did accept some responsibility the whole thing possibly could have a resolution sooner rather than later. At the moment any hint of the blame being directed at them results in uproar.

[Maguire]

Tragedies like this normally come about through a "perfect storm" of any number of factors and although its convenient to try to attach blame to a single entity I really don't think you can.

Least auspicious day in the history of South Yorks Constabulary? You bet. Bad policing and poor decision making under pressure? Absolutely. Was this the only reason it happened? Nope.

In my very first foray onto this website a decade ago I said something on a Hillsborough thread about how Liverpool supporters simply had to accept a number of their fans contributed to what happened and I got abuse which (at the time) really surprised me. I stand by it though, they were clearly a factor.

The subsequent investigation, cover-up, call it what you will is a different matter entirely.

[PieEater]

The contribution of Liverpool fans to the events are no different to any large set of football fans, so the fact they are from Liverpool in my mind is irrelevant.

The contributing factors of few turnstiles and poor ground design coupled with inept Policing decisions made the tragedy inevitable which ever set of supporters were there.

[Hoop Blah]

I'd agree that there is some fault with the fans that day but I'd guess that the limited acceptance of that is based on a few things.

- a defence mechanism after the authorities and media tried to pin it wholely on them
- usually the tone and context the blame is suggested in is argumentative and looking for a reaction
- the behaviour of the fans on the day was largely expected and not uncommon, therefore the handling of events were the 'bit that went wrong'
- its the duty of those there to organise and protect to do just that so that any dangerous behaviour doesn't end in the tragic events that it did
- I don't think it was a capacity issue, it was a placement of fans issue that caused the fatalities, the Liverpool fans weren't at fault for that

It's obviously a complex and emotive subject though, and not one I've read too much into since events at the time because it's always felt a bit too close to home for comfort.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Liverpool fans turned up in their thousands (2000 more than capacity)

Where did your read that? At the time of the disaster, it's been calculated that Lepping Lane wasn't even full - something like 9500 in an end that held 10000.

The inquiry also stated that is found no evidence of ticketless fans being there in large numbers.

(and they were given the smaller stand. Forest had the Kop)

I've never understood why that's thought relevant. Both teams were given equal allocations. It's not like having a smaller end meant they had less tickets.

[watfordroyal]

As said, there was a multitude of factors,
there were roadworks delaying many of the LFC fans, so they arrived anxiously late,
Many would have been pissed-up & some chancers (as was the norm in those days)
the police failed to allow for this,
the police failed to follow their own blue-print of the previous years,
they used to have a screen in the streets, only allowing ticket holders through to the ground, there was none.
they failed to notify the FA of the problems, to delay the kick-off,
they failed to close the gates at top of the central pen and have any police/stewards direct fans into empty pens,
they failed to recognise the dangerous situation developing until it was way too late.
they failed to accept their part in the disaster (along with everyone else).

Have been in a few similar crush situations over the years in the 70's & 80's,
Worst prob trying to get into Wembley for the Chelsea v Man City Full Members Cup Final 86.

[PieEater]

I think it's a little worse than the police failing to accept their part.

They lied, and said the Liverpool fans forced the gate.
They lied and said the fans were drunk
They lied and said there were thousands of ticketless fans.
They "lost" the CCTV tapes

The guy in charge was a rookie and was clueless, his decisions and actions directly led to the disaster.

It's amazing some trolls still seem to believe and continue to peddle the myths about the fans.

[watfordroyal]

I think it's a little worse than the police failing to accept their part.

They lied, and said the Liverpool fans forced the gate.
They lied and said the fans were drunk
They lied and said there were thousands of ticketless fans.
They "lost" the CCTV tapes

The guy in charge was a rookie and was clueless, his decisions and actions directly led to the disaster.

It's amazing some trolls still seem to believe and continue to peddle the myths about the fans.

Agree with all that, other than
Don't think they lied about fans being drunk, certainly not all, but many many would have been.
It was the norm, you could take booze onto trains & coaches in those days,
and you could still get in if pissed. LFC fans no different from any others in this.
Likely though, many of those that sadly died, had got there earlier, and were not drunk.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Agree with all that, other than
Don't think they lied about fans being drunk, certainly not all, but many many would have been..

Many would have had a beer, but that's not the same as being drunk.

Loads of fans have a beer before going into the Madejski, but how many do you see who have noticeably been drinking?

[FiNeRaIn]

It's amazing some trolls still seem to believe and continue to peddle the myths about the fans.

Do you know what a troll is? I don't think you do.

No one is fishing for a reaction to rile someone else here, they are simply posting their beliefs - this isn't trolling. I respect your opinions on Hillsbrough as I do many others who don't share the same view point on here.

I massively, massively agree the police were shocking and the cover up is a complete criminal offence which justice should definitely be done. However, whether Liverpool fans were just the same as other football fans doesn't matter, if it was another set of fans also going in without tickets and aiding the problem then they also should take some accountability, I don't have any dislike for scousers in general at all. No one is saying the fact fans went in without tickets was anywhere close to the main reason this happened, but it aided to a shocking sequence of events and there needs to be some accountability if you are pissed up hoping to get into a game free then it hinders the safety of others. There were definitely a substantial numbers of people doing that.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

There were definitely a substantial numbers of people doing that.

Definitely?

Your personal hunch counts as definite?

[FiNeRaIn]

definitely in my opninion Mr Pedant and its an opinion shared by lots of people. Just because there is no official number of confirmed cases doesn't mean it didn't happen, which is exactly the defence you, cmonurz, and other liveprool fans boast as a defence. Its difficult to put an exact number on something like that, by substantial I don't mean a majority of Liverpool fans.