Lionel Messi

[cmonurz]

"Give thanks to God, for he is good."

54 goals this season, it seems almost inevitable that he will go past the record of Dixie Dean (63) with some ease, and the European record of 66 goals in a season.

8 hat-tricks now too.

Quite incredible. I don’t feel qualified to anoint him ‘the greatest player ever’ as I never saw Pele play, but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

[TBM]

but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

You sure?

Maradona won Argentina the World Cup in 86 - Messi, as good as he is, hasn't transferred his talent over to the international stage yet.

[cmonurz]

I’ve never bought much into the World Cups argument. Messi is 24, has he had what, one major championship, two years ago? Admit I don’t follow his performances for his country that closely, but you could argue that the standard of opposition he faces in La Liga is in some cases equal to that he might face in competitive games for Argentina against the likes of Bolivia and Chile.

In terms of raw ability, Messi and Maradona stand head and shoulders above anyone else I have seen play the game. That Messi has the players around him to make best use of that talent at Barca shouldn’t be considered to his detriment. Maradona ran through entire teams on his day, and to an extent he had to, but his game was more about pace and power – Messi isn’t as quick or strong, but remains as magically effective on the ball, and that’s due to his superior skill with it, imho.

[Hoop Blah]

Messi is playing for a very good Barcelona side which really helps him out. He's the jewell in their crown but as a team they're head and shoulders above 99% of their opposition so it's really difficult to compare.

All I saw of Maradona at his best was dragging along some relatively average teams and doing it well.

Even with Argentina Messi has a decent team around him, not miles ahead of the opposition as Barcelona are, and he's failed to have quite the same impact.

I'm never a big one for comparing players and saying X is better than Y or the best there's ever been etc, but I'd say Maradona still edges it for me.

[RobRoyal]

but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

You sure?

Maradona won Argentina the World Cup in 86 - Messi, as good as he is, hasn't transferred his talent over to the international stage yet.

The World Cup is no longer the pinnacle of football competitions. Messi has played well for Argentina. Why is it that his quality has to be judged by his struggling international team's success?

[TBM]

but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

You sure?

Maradona won Argentina the World Cup in 86 - Messi, as good as he is, hasn't transferred his talent over to the international stage yet.

The World Cup is no longer the pinnacle of football competitions. Messi has played well for Argentina. Why is it that his quality has to be judged by his struggling international team's success?

By what Hoop Blah says above ^^

[RobRoyal]

Messi is playing at a higher standard and achieving more than Maradona did. You can wonder what Maradona would have done in this Barca team, but given that it's unknowable we might as well make the judgement in the context that actually exists.

Secondly, Messi is not simply a beneficiary of Barcelona's dominance, he's a key part of it. He keeps the ball as well as anyone and he's as creative as anyone in that team (with the exception of Xavi). It's hardly like he stands by the opposition box ready to be brilliant, utterly dependent on Xavi and Iniesta to feed him. When Messi has a 'bad' game, he's still key to Barcelona.

[Terminal Boardom]

Can't wait for the end of the month as I make a visit to the Camp Nou to hopefully see what all the fuss is about. Barca v Athletic Bilbao could be quite a game.

[Hoop Blah]

I didn't say he wasn't all those things. He's an exceptional player in an exceptional side.

Not sure how he's playing at a higher level than Maradona though. How do you figure that? Seria A in the 80's was the top league (along with ours of course) and Maradone was the key player for one of the top teams. Just because Napoli weren't dominant in a way that Barcelona can be in Spain doesn't mean it's a lower standard.

He was playing at the height of the game.

His off field issues will always be a negative mind. And they probably stopped him really making the most of his ability.

[6ft Kerplunk]

I’ve never bought much into the World Cups argument. Messi is 24, has he had what, one major championship, two years ago?

I agree. Look at Maradona, in '82 he was 22 and didn't do that much in the World Cup. Four years later he dominated the tournament. Messi at the same age could do exactly that.

[TBM]

I’ve never bought much into the World Cups argument. Messi is 24, has he had what, one major championship, two years ago?

I agree. Look at Maradona, in '82 he was 22 and didn't do that much in the World Cup. Four years later he dominated the tournament. Messi at the same age could do exactly that.

Actually, he was 21 in the 82 WC and 25 in the 86 WC

Anyway IF Messi can do that, then yes, he will pass Maradona as the best player....

[cmonurz]

Well, same thing really, he’ll be 26 in Brazil, my point really was that he’s had only one tournament to make such a mark, and that he didn’t do that aged 22 doesn’t tarnish him.

Naive international football question that I should know the answer to – do South American teams have a tournament like our Euros or the African Cup of Nations?

[FORZA READING]

Yes they do. I have never seen Maradona play so Messi is most definately the best I have seen BUT I do think he needs to perform at a World Cup (not necessarily win it but definately dominate it). Whether The World Cup is still the best competition quality-wise (which it is not) is irrelevant as it is still the biggest stage in the World and would be the only way to put the argument to bed.

[TBM]

Well, same thing really, he’ll be 26 in Brazil, my point really was that he’s had only one tournament to make such a mark, and that he didn’t do that aged 22 doesn’t tarnish him.

Naive international football question that I should know the answer to – do South American teams have a tournament like our Euros or the African Cup of Nations?

Copa America - which he was poor in, as was the whole Argentina side (despite being hosts). They won 1 group game and then lost to Uruguay

[RobRoyal]

I didn't say he wasn't all those things. He's an exceptional player in an exceptional side.

Not sure how he's playing at a higher level than Maradona though. How do you figure that? Seria A in the 80's was the top league (along with ours of course) and Maradone was the key player for one of the top teams. Just because Napoli weren't dominant in a way that Barcelona can be in Spain doesn't mean it's a lower standard.

He was playing at the height of the game.

His off field issues will always be a negative mind. And they probably stopped him really making the most of his ability.

Messi has scored 153 in 204 games for Barcelona (Maradona scored 81 in 188 for Napoli, 22 in 36 for Barca). He has won 5 La Liga titles (Maradona won 4 league titles in his career), 3 Champions Leagues (Maradona's only European trophy was the UEFA cup), 2 Club World Cups and an Olympic Gold Medal. He's about be Champions League top scorer for the 4th time in a row. He has already scored 22 international goals (Maradona managed 34).

[TBM]

Whats your point?

Messi hasn't won those competitions single handedly, like Maradona basically did in the 86 WC

[Hoop Blah]

I’ve never bought much into the World Cups argument. Messi is 24, has he had what, one major championship, two years ago? Admit I don’t follow his performances for his country that closely, but you could argue that the standard of opposition he faces in La Liga is in some cases equal to that he might face in competitive games for Argentina against the likes of Bolivia and Chile.

In terms of raw ability, Messi and Maradona stand head and shoulders above anyone else I have seen play the game. That Messi has the players around him to make best use of that talent at Barca shouldn’t be considered to his detriment. Maradona ran through entire teams on his day, and to an extent he had to, but his game was more about pace and power – Messi isn’t as quick or strong, but remains as magically effective on the ball, and that’s due to his superior skill with it, imho.

I'm not sure you've seen enough of Maradona on the ball if you don't think he was as skillful.

Messi really should go on to surpass Maradona because he doesn't appear to be one to get sidetracked like the fat cheat was, but I really don't think you can seperate them on their ability to manipulate the ball.

[Mr Angry]

but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

You sure?

Maradona won Argentina the World Cup in 86 - Messi, as good as he is, hasn't transferred his talent over to the international stage yet.

Thats like saying that George Best was rubbish because Northern Ireland never qualified for a major tournament let alone win one, when he was playing for them.

[TBM]

but Messi is better than Maradona. Scarily, by quite a distance too.

You sure?

Maradona won Argentina the World Cup in 86 - Messi, as good as he is, hasn't transferred his talent over to the international stage yet.

Thats like saying that George Best was rubbish because Northern Ireland never qualified for a major tournament let alone win one, when he was playing for them.

But if you compare Best to any other player who has played for Northern Ireland then you can........Maradona carried Argentina to a world cup win, something Messi hasn't done for Argentina yet.

[RobRoyal]

Whats your point?

Messi hasn't won those competitions single handedly, like Maradona basically did in the 86 WC

That's a popular myth. He was in a team that conceded 3 goals in 6 games leading up to the final - was he responsible for their tight defending? They were also seriously assisted by fortune - they played two teams in the knock-out stages who had come 3rd out of 4 in the group stage (Belguim and Uruguay, who won a single game between them all tournament long) and we know about the fortune required to beat England.

Anyway, my point is that you can't separate players out of the context they played in, and by all objective measures Messi is achieving more individually and with his team than Maradona did - with the exception of not winning a world cup. I find the idea that Messi needs to win a world cup (which is something largely out of his control), or go and play for a worse club to prove he's the best, a bit bizarre.

For the record before now Maradona has always been my vote for the game's best player, based largely on seeing his amazing technique in old clips - not old enough to remember him playing except for the debacles of 1990 and 1994.