Alf

[Royalee]

TBF to Church, both ALF's goals yesterday were typical Church goals,
horrible tap-ins from a striker who manages to be in the right place

True. If Church has scored those this board would be full of halfwits complaining that he just can't score real goals. Strange how it can be that Alf (quite rightly) gets credit for being in the right place to score 2 close range goals but if Church did it then he would be slated for always getting simple tap ins.

Church would have managed to get offside for the second goal on Friday. To say he'd have scored either of those goals is laughable.

Very pleased for ALF and while I wouldn't change anything yet, he's certainly staking his claim to start.

[facaldaqui]

Difficult to know what we've got with Le Fondre yet. Is he going to become a gilt-edged striker, or another one who goes long periods without goals? Roberts seems to play a larger part in games than Le F, but he's probably only got another season in him, so we still need to find a long-term top striker. Everyone seems to get more goals with Roberts setting up chances the way he does: maybe the reason Le F, Church, and Hunt weren't knocking them in before was playing up front with each other. If we go up and improve quality further, it's still not impossible Alf could become another Romario. ten-yard terror--or maybe, like Curo, he's already reached the top of his range. Keep him, offload Church, I say.

[RobRoyal]

Snowbal, how do you feel we should adjust our interpretation of those stats knowing that one of those Church goals was a mishit cross (Barnsley away) and more than one other appeared to go off him without his intent?

Well, shall we begin with the fact that Church didn't score at Barnsley?

Should we remove Kebe's fluked goal recently (after Roberts' back-heel?)

Would we strike off Harte's goal if his cross this Friday had dropped in?

We can't. It would be far too subjective and open to interpretation.

Many of Church's goals have been "ugly" or rebounds or tap-ins, but the original point
was not that he deserved those goals or didn't but the way too many report them.

If Church "merely" gets a tap-in or bundles the ball over the line it's almost a negative
but when ALF does exactly the same it's brilliant goal-poaching.

Jeez Snowball, it was a simple question (i don't know whether this goal was actaually from the hot period you're talking about btw, but the mishit goal I mentioned was actually at Burnley, last year).

I don't have a problem with goal-poachers or ugle goals - you've gone way too far here in attacking a position you've assumed I hold.

But to say we can't make judgements about ability and effectiveness because they are subjective... What embarrassing tosh. Church's scoring record is decent. I've seen his goals and I think that a) several of them have had more than a slice of luck about them and b) over a longer sample size his scoring record would decline.

Yes, it's a judgment (if you think it's a subjective one then we really need to talk more about the meaning of that word). It's a judgment on the quality and the significance of the stats that we have at our disposal. Goals are not all equivalent, and extrapolating from a small sample size is naive.

[cmonurz]

Difficult to know what we've got with Le Fondre yet. Is he going to become a gilt-edged striker, or another one who goes long periods without goals? Roberts seems to play a larger part in games than Le F, but he's probably only got another season in him, so we still need to find a long-term top striker. Everyone seems to get more goals with Roberts setting up chances the way he does: maybe the reason Le F, Church, and Hunt weren't knocking them in before was playing up front with each other. If we go up and improve quality further, it's still not impossible Alf could become another Romario. ten-yard terror--or maybe, like Curo, he's already reached the top of his range. Keep him, offload Church, I say.

Not keen on offloading any of them unless we have to, but I've made the point on various threads that for me Le Fondre could be 'the new Cureton' with a Butler-like foil in the side, and that for me has been signed in Jason Roberts.

That said, if we go up we'll need better than both of them.

[Snowball]

Goals ARE equivalent, long-term.

Church has scored 12+4+7 for RFC, about what Long had scored in two more seasons
before taking off.

Of course you can get lucky goals but IMO Church is very often in the right place
at the right time (the sign of a good striker)


Interesting that for all his tap-ins, in most cases there wasn't another RFC player near. How come?

[cmonurz]

Interesting that for all his tap-ins, in most cases there wasn't another RFC player near. How come?

Two of the same type of striker rarely play at the same time? And you wouldn't expect to find the likes of Kebe popping up 3 yards out.

[facaldaqui]

Difficult to know what we've got with Le Fondre yet. Is he going to become a gilt-edged striker, or another one who goes long periods without goals? Roberts seems to play a larger part in games than Le F, but he's probably only got another season in him, so we still need to find a long-term top striker. Everyone seems to get more goals with Roberts setting up chances the way he does: maybe the reason Le F, Church, and Hunt weren't knocking them in before was playing up front with each other. If we go up and improve quality further, it's still not impossible Alf could become another Romario. ten-yard terror--or maybe, like Curo, he's already reached the top of his range. Keep him, offload Church, I say.

Not keen on offloading any of them unless we have to, but I've made the point on various threads that for me Le Fondre could be 'the new Cureton' with a Butler-like foil in the side, and that for me has been signed in Jason Roberts.

That said, if we go up we'll need better than both of them.

Le Fondre will need to be better than Curo. Cureton is such a legend, for good reason, that it's easily forgotten how often he became stranded up front without service--indeed both he and Butler were often stranded together. The ideal Reading-type striker under the present system, played with no forward midfielder, is one who comes back, as Long did, chasing and tackling.

Le Fondre is at his best interacting with close inside-forward-type play--the service from Hal and Roberts was ideal for him for his goals. He's less adept, perhaps because of his height, at putting away the longer crosses our wingers tend to send over.

[paulholsgrove]

Tbh I think all church needs is a good season long loan to a top league 1 side. Get some goals and confidence, then if we do get promoted and then relegated, we can sell the top earners again, and we hopefully have a fresh goal scorer, who scored 25 plus goals the previous season and is full of confidence.

[Ian Royal]

Snowball, with respect, you are wrestling this thread towards a discussion simply about minutes per goals scored of each player, when various posters have made different points about how critical those goals have been to our points gained, or when the goals have been scored, or how the players are being used by McDermott.

Thing is though, flip that on it's head and look at it from the POV of the situation when Church is brought on rather than ALF.

If ALF is generally brought on when we're level or behind and need a goal to win a game then it's quite likely any goals he scores are going to be point winning or point saving ones isn't it.

If Church is brought on when we're already ahead and need to defend a lead then by scoring in those circumstances he's done his job just as much as ALF has. Just because they come in a game where we're ahead doesn't mean he's done his job any less than ALF has.

I agree with Snowball there is too much stick given to Church certainly as a sub when most of the time he comes on and helps in the situation we're in every bit as much as ALF does when he comes on in a different situation. ALF is better in my opinion but Church does have his worth which people seem reluctant to see or admit to.

It does however indicate the massive flaws and irrelevancies in Snowball simply putting up goals per mins anyway let alone extrapolating it to a 90 minute/46 game season which very few strikers ever play anyway.

There is a reason they're asked to come on under different circumstances though. It's because one provides a definite goal threat and the other is good at running around a lot hassling defenders. I've said it before, I like Church, I think he's a decent player who can bring a lot to the table, but he's just not a good goalscorer. Whether it's mental or ability, it is a simple fact.

As a back up striker he's decent enough. With the right partner or in the right set up he might come good. But that partner isn't here and we don't play that way.

Anyway, this is all nonsense as it came out of a simple question which had a simple answer. ALF - 8, Church 3. How or why doesn't really matter.

[sandman]

Take away the points ALF has cost us at Blackpool and Palace and it's ALF 4 Church 3. We could very well have gone on to score a couple more in the Blackpool match as we were in the ascendency at the time so really it's Alf 2 Church 3.

In fact, it is pretty obvious that we'd be promoted by now if it wasn't for Alf.

[Ian Royal]

Take away the points ALF has cost us at Blackpool and Palace and it's ALF 4 Church 3. We could very well have gone on to score a couple more in the Blackpool match as we were in the ascendency at the time so really it's Alf 2 Church 3.

In fact, it is pretty obvious that we'd be promoted by now if it wasn't for Alf.

Yeah, Church hasn't missed goals scoring chances this season

Your dislike of ALF is ridiculous.

[Franchise FC]

Take away the points ALF has cost us at Blackpool and Palace and it's ALF 4 Church 3. We could very well have gone on to score a couple more in the Blackpool match as we were in the ascendency at the time so really it's Alf 2 Church 3.

In fact, it is pretty obvious that we'd be promoted by now if it wasn't for Alf.

Yeah, Church hasn't missed goals scoring chances this season

Your dislike of ALF is ridiculous.

At the moment, the dislike of anyone in the squad is a little counter-intuitive. BMcD keeps banging on about the group. Why wouldn't we just go with it ?

[Ian Royal]

I agree, I don't dislike anyone in the squad and haven't since Matt Mills left.

[Uke]

If ALF had been banging them in we wouldn't have Roberts

Not scoring may have been the best thing he could have done

[Ian Royal]

If ALF had been banging them in we wouldn't have Roberts

Not scoring may have been the best thing he could have done

We certainly needed something else. Hunt and Church are second strikers. I think ALF needs someone who can be a focal point to play off of as well. Manset may have been good for that, but it's hard to go with two strikers who have no experience at championship level and are both trying to make the step up in a team with promotion ambitions.

[sandman]

Take away the points ALF has cost us at Blackpool and Palace and it's ALF 4 Church 3. We could very well have gone on to score a couple more in the Blackpool match as we were in the ascendency at the time so really it's Alf 2 Church 3.

In fact, it is pretty obvious that we'd be promoted by now if it wasn't for Alf.

Yeah, Church hasn't missed goals scoring chances this season

Your dislike of ALF is ridiculous.

Well that was easy.

[melonhead]

tbf hes not played, to get 9 is a great return

[Cypry]

Take away the points ALF has cost us at Blackpool and Palace and it's ALF 4 Church 3. We could very well have gone on to score a couple more in the Blackpool match as we were in the ascendency at the time so really it's Alf 2 Church 3.

In fact, it is pretty obvious that we'd be promoted by now if it wasn't for Alf.

Yeah, Church hasn't missed goals scoring chances this season

Your dislike of ALF is ridiculous.

And so is the dislike for Church ridiculous.

McDermott has built a squad this year, where there is no reliance on individual players. Roberts coming is has helped create a lot of goals, but generally the goals are pretty evenly spread through the team, everyone is playing their part. ALF's recent cameos until this week have been pretty woeful - when was the last time he scored before Friday? Watford?

Church has made some important contributions this season - Leeds away anyone?

At the end of the day, Brian knows best - he obviously believes that both Church and ALF have something to offer, and if that's good enough for him, it's good enough for me....

[Ian Royal]

I agree with most of that. The only exception being that ALF's cameos haev been woeful. He had a poor game at Peterborough, but then so did everyone else. He can't come off the bench and win every game. And you missed his matchwinner at Millwall, even though it's listed on this thread.

[Cypry]

I agree with most of that. The only exception being that ALF's cameos haev been woeful. He had a poor game at Peterborough, but then so did everyone else. He can't come off the bench and win every game. And you missed his matchwinner at Millwall, even though it's listed on this thread.

Couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread - hence the ? after Watford....

Maybe woeful is a bit strong, I've seen him come on two or three times and each time he's been anonymous (better description than woeful).
I guess the point I was trying to make is that recently ALF and Church have been pretty much on a par and I expect to see Brian using whichever one he feels is best suited to a given game...