Alf

[peterroyal76]

Surely this thread was about ALF replacing Hunt in the team not Church.

[Cypry]

Surely this thread was about ALF replacing Hunt in the team not Church.

Hunt has been fantastic recently, why would we replace him with anyone? Seems that most agreed on this fairly early in the thread...

ALF is likely to be used from the bench, as is Church. A new ALF vs Church debate seems to have overtaken the thread - these things happen...

[Ian Royal]

I agree with most of that. The only exception being that ALF's cameos haev been woeful. He had a poor game at Peterborough, but then so did everyone else. He can't come off the bench and win every game. And you missed his matchwinner at Millwall, even though it's listed on this thread.

Couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread - hence the ? after Watford....

Maybe woeful is a bit strong, I've seen him come on two or three times and each time he's been anonymous (better description than woeful).
I guess the point I was trying to make is that recently ALF and Church have been pretty much on a par and I expect to see Brian using whichever one he feels is best suited to a given game...

Seems pretty obvious to me. ALF when we want to get a goal - to equalise, take the lead or extend the lead beyond 1-0. Church when we're looking to kill the game off and prevent the opposition getting back into it. Or, Church for energy, ALF for goals.

[Handsome Man]

Leeds were down to 10 men on Friday, so bringing ALF on didn't mean we would become outnumbered. Normally however, you can understand McDermott's preference for Church or Hunt who make a larger contribution to the performance of the team.

[Gordons Cumming]

Leeds were down to 10 men on Friday, so bringing ALF on didn't mean we would become outnumbered. Normally however, you can understand McDermott's preference for Church or Hunt who make a larger contribution to the performance of the team.

Can't get more a contribution than goals.

[blueroyals]

Let's get a qualitative perspective here Snowball. Church doesn't start games, he comes on as a sub. If you try to read a pattern, Church mostly gets substituted on in games that we have already won and the opponents have been demoralised by this. McDermott obviously does this to give Church a confidence boost as it is more likely he will score goals in these games. Le Fondre comes on when we are drawing or losing and are in need of another goal. The fact that the team are drawing or losing means it is less likely for Le Fondre to score relative to games where Church comes on when we are already 1, 2 or 3 goals up. The fact that Le Fondre has won plenty of games for us this season (recently Milwall and Leeds) against harder opposition than Church plays against, whilst scoring more goals is the reason I think ALF is better than Church.

[test icicles]

I'd suggest it's more to do with the fact that ALF is a goal scorer and will drift in and out of a game, but could always pop up with a goal. Whereas Church on the other hand will chase the ball down, pressure the opposition and defend from the front. Hence ALF is more likely to come on when we need a goal, whereas Church is more likely to come on when we need to see a game out.

[Ian Royal]

Let's get a qualitative perspective here Snowball. Church doesn't start games, he comes on as a sub. If you try to read a pattern, Church mostly gets substituted on in games that we have already won and the opponents have been demoralised by this. McDermott obviously does this to give Church a confidence boost as it is more likely he will score goals in these games. Le Fondre comes on when we are drawing or losing and are in need of another goal. The fact that the team are drawing or losing means it is less likely for Le Fondre to score relative to games where Church comes on when we are already 1, 2 or 3 goals up. The fact that Le Fondre has won plenty of games for us this season (recently Milwall and Leeds) against harder opposition than Church plays against, whilst scoring more goals is the reason I think ALF is better than Church.

That's flawed analysis. Why are we more likely to score in games we've already killed off and are now shutting out, than games where we're chasing a goal? Answer: We aren't.

[Snowball]

Take a look at Church's stats in the Snowball Sat thread

[melonhead]

quite clear that mcdermott brings alf on more when we need a goal, so he thinks hes more likely to grab one
's good enough for me

[Snowball]

Let's get a qualitative perspective here Snowball.

Church doesn't start games, he comes on as a sub.

Patent Nonsense.


Prior to the Arrival of Roberts 78.26 % of his appearances were STARTS



18 Starts (78%) 05 Sub Appearances CHURCH

If you add in all appearances since Roberts took over as the main striker

18 Starts (62%) 11 Sub Appearances CHURCH

[Extended-Phenotype]

We see Alf link up well, keep possession, score some peaches, and finish some sitters.

We see Church achieve nothing of note, miss sitters and score accidentally.

Stats don’t paint the picture correctly. Especially when you are selective about them (why exclude the Leeds game?!!!).

Another case of manipulating stats to suit from a man who pretends not to be a fan of a player he can’t help leaping to the defence of in every post he makes. Sounds like a poor attempt at appearing impartial.

[Snowball]

We see Alf link up well, keep possession, score some peaches, and finish some sitters.

I think Alf is the better all-round player in every way (except maybe wearing down opponents)


That wasn't the point.

We see Church achieve nothing of note, miss sitters and score accidentally.

Church DOES get tap-ins, but he is THERE to tap in, and he has scored three VG goals this year. His chip at Leeeds would have been all over the TV if Messi had done it, and his two goals versus West Ham were excellent. A fourth goal, away at Coventry was very neat (made by Alf)... and a fifth was a very decent header on the end of a long cross

So 5/7 goals this season were very decent goals, one brilliant

He got a "first-to-the-ball" versus Doncaster, and touched a Kebe header in v Peterboro

Stats don’t paint the picture correctly.

Long term the books don't talk about whether goals are good bad or indifferent.
What matters is were they scored.

Especially when you are selective about them (why exclude the Leeds game?!!!).

I haven't "excluded the Leeds game". I was making the point that UP TO the most recent game Church was out-scoring Le Fondre.

When Church came on as a sub and got two quick goals, he was being dismissed as having falsely-elevated stats.

Not saying Church would have scored those goals, but they were typical Church goals. But he can't if he's not on the pitch.

Another case of manipulating stats to suit from a man who pretends not to be a fan of a player he can’t help leaping
to the defence of in every post he makes. Sounds like a poor attempt at appearing impartial.

You're kidding me, right?

I think Alf is a great player and you will find tens, maybe hundreds of statements
by me saying so. I would pick him before Church every day without fail.

I am not manipulating stats, people are ignoring stats

ALF, so far this season (prior to Leeds) had an INFERIOR goal-scoring record, but, NOTE THE BUT, he was FAR better at assisting others and was FAR better overall.


That's why, since September, every game I have been posting stats to show ALF is excellent


For example, immediately after the Leeds game.

Update after Leeds Home



Adam Le Fondre shows his class and closes in on Jason Roberts


1,041 Minutes 11 Major Contributions one every 094 Minutes 5 Goals 6 Assists Roberts

1,668 Minutes 14 Major Contributions one every 112 Minutes 9 Goals 5 Assists ALF

1,540 Minutes 08 Major Contributions one every 193 Minutes 7 Goals 1 Assists CHURCH


The point is NOT the Alf is class and currently a better all-round footballer than Church,
(he is) but that Church is unfairly maligned and that, in fact, his stats stand up well

A player who makes or scores a goal every other 90 minutes is quality.

Church does that. He's not as useful as Roberts-Hunt-Le Fondre but he IS important and contributing
and WILL have a season where he gets close to 20 goals (Plus he is a fair bit younger and has improvement in him)

[Extended-Phenotype]

“I haven't "excluded the Leeds game". I was making the point that UP TO the most recent game Church was out-scoring Le Fondre.”

Why discount a game in which a player under scrutiny scored twice? Utterly illogical.

“I am not manipulating stats, people are ignoring stats”

How about you exclude a game Church scored twice in? Or would that not suit your point?

[Snowball]

Duh, BECAUSE IT HAD ONLY JUST HAPPENED, AND THAT WAS THE POINT


The argument prior to the game would have been that Church had the better scoring record,
but get two goals coming on as a sub when your competition stays on the bench kind of
skews the stats (temporarily)

Exactly the same thing happened a while back when CHURCH came on as a sub and got
two goals. At that moment (after the game) HE was our top scorer.

And, EVEN WITH the two extra goals, ALF is hardly hammering Church on goals, is he?

Or do you think 22 v 19 goals is a gulf in class?

That's why I previously wrote

I prefer Alf to Church but let's get some honest and reality round here, shall we?

Prior to yesterday's game

Church was the better striker in terms of goals per minute



1,657 Minutes 7 Goals = 237 Minutes per Goal ALF
1,537 Minutes 7 Goals = 220 Minutes per Goal CHURCH

ALF has improved to a goal every 187 minutes


And just to get that in perspective,

for a 46 x 90 minute game season that would be

22 Goals ALF
19 Goals CHURCH

[marcusopp]

Le Fondre is miles better than church, who, let's be fair to him, is crap.
His finish on the dissallowed goal was class, church would have shanked that into the stands, or missed it altogether.

I agree with the majority though, keep the Roberts-Hunt partnership with Le Fondre as back-up.
Hopefully Shepperd will be fit soon and provide another option.

[West Stand Man]

Le Fondre is miles better than church, who, let's be fair to him, is crap.
His finish on the dissallowed goal was class, church would have shanked that into the stands, or missed it altogether.

I agree with the majority though, keep the Roberts-Hunt partnership with Le Fondre as back-up.
Hopefully Shepperd will be fit soon and provide another option.

You need to go back into the corner and feed on the manure in the tray there. This endless anti-Church crap is just unbelieveable.

[marcusopp]

Le Fondre is miles better than church, who, let's be fair to him, is crap.
His finish on the dissallowed goal was class, church would have shanked that into the stands, or missed it altogether.

I agree with the majority though, keep the Roberts-Hunt partnership with Le Fondre as back-up.
Hopefully Shepperd will be fit soon and provide another option.

You need to go back into the corner and feed on the manure in the tray there. This endless anti-Church crap is just unbelieveable.

We don't all have to like him mate. If he was any good he wouldn't be getting all of this sh1t.
To contridict myself, when Long was getting stick, i was one of the few who stuck up for him, like you are with church, so hopefully you'll be right and he'll come good.

[melonhead]

If he was any good he wouldn't be getting all of this sh1t.

thats nonsense


you only have to look at those who have recieved bucket loads of abuse on here from loads of people in the past

[Extended-Phenotype]

Duh, BECAUSE IT HAD ONLY JUST HAPPENED, AND THAT WAS THE POINT

The point being what? "Prior to Leeds" is just a worthless array. Doesn't matter how you try and excuse it.