Hillsborough

[Extended-Phenotype]

You're not wrong, but you are an echo.

[No Fixed Abode]

I think 14 people were sentenced for Heysel. However, why do we never hear anything from Liverpool on the anniversary of it?

Posibly for the same reasons we don't hear much from Nottingham Forest on the anniversary of Hillsborough

Forest fans didn't cause the death of Liverpool fans though. Police and Liverpool fans caused the death of Liverpool fans @ Hillsbrough. HTH.

[PieEater]

It’s fun to debate and all, but I do find it odd that nobody on the “it’s the peoples fault” side of the debate seems to even know what happened. I’d thought that would be the first step; seems odd to get mad about a story BEFORE you’ve read it.

That's because they are either:
a) clueless
b) Sun readers who believe what they read.
c) People who have an inherent grudge against scousers and so ignore the facts

[Extended-Phenotype]

It's also fun watching them go quiet after you answer questions they mistakenly believed were trump cards.

[Extended-Phenotype]

(actually, I wasn't refering to you, TSW)

[superreadingfan]

with EP lack of any real argument its hard to really change my opinion, but perhaps it is different coming from someone from america where we didn't have this 70s, 80s rabidness culture that turned people into complete murderous rampaging idiots and then blame someone else for our behavior. when americans go to sporting events we have tickets, we dont have tickets we dont go. we dont stand around outside the stadium drunk on cheap beer trying to jib our way in. its hard to kind of rationalize that behavior. then again im just a scouser hating sun reader

[No Fixed Abode]

It’s fun to debate and all, but I do find it odd that nobody on the “it’s the peoples fault” side of the debate seems to even know what happened. I’d thought that would be the first step; seems odd to get mad about a story BEFORE you’ve read it.

That's because they are either:
a) clueless
b) Sun readers who believe what they read.
c) People who have an inherent grudge against scousers and so ignore the facts

I'll take the word of Liverpool fans I know (actual Scousers) who were there at Hillsborough - who say, some, Liverpool fans were to blame for what happened. Not only were they at Hillsborough, they were in Athens witnessing Liverpool fans robbing each other for tickets, shamelessly breaking into the ground without tickets (reckoned to be 3000 Liverpool fans in the ground who didn't have tickets). You would have thought they should know better after Hillsborough.

And not only that - they were at the FA Cup semi-final at Old Trafford where LIverpool fans smashed up the concourses and toilets. They love the club, but hate these minority of fans who do this sort of thing. So much so, they don't really travel to watch Liverpool now.

[Royal With Cheese]

It’s fun to debate and all, but I do find it odd that nobody on the “it’s the peoples fault” side of the debate seems to even know what happened. I’d thought that would be the first step; seems odd to get mad about a story BEFORE you’ve read it.

That's because they are either:
a) clueless
b) Sun readers who believe what they read.
c) People who have an inherent grudge against scousers and so ignore the facts

I'll take the word of Liverpool fans I know (actual Scousers) who were there at Hillsborough - who say, some, Liverpool fans were to blame for what happened. Not only were they at Hillsborough, they were in Athens witnessing Liverpool fans robbing each other for tickets, shamelessly breaking into the ground without tickets (reckoned to be 3000 Liverpool fans in the ground who didn't have tickets). You would have thought they should know better after Hillsborough.

And not only that - they were at the FA Cup semi-final at Old Trafford where LIverpool fans smashed up the concourses and toilets. They love the club, but hate these minority of fans who do this sort of thing. So much so, they don't really travel to watch Liverpool now.

Ah ha, the old "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black" routine .....

[No Fixed Abode]

This is true RWC. My m8 Hicksy has just moved up to Liverpool with them. He works for the Liverpool Echo now.

[PieEater]

AndI had a mate in the 80's who would regularly blag his way into Man Utd games, including two cup finals where they jumped the barrier. People try it on everywhere if they can get away with it.

The authorities however don't always make such massive cockups that kill people, and then try to pass the blame on those involved and cover up their actions.

[Extended-Phenotype]

with EP lack of any real argument its hard to really change my opinion, but perhaps it is different coming from someone from america where we didn't have this 70s, 80s rabidness culture that turned people into complete murderous rampaging idiots and then blame someone else for our behavior. when americans go to sporting events we have tickets, we dont have tickets we dont go. we dont stand around outside the stadium drunk on cheap beer trying to jib our way in. its hard to kind of rationalize that behavior. then again im just a scouser hating sun reader

Sorry bud, it’s you who lacks any real argument.

Once more, for luck perhaps – The Leppings Lane End was nowhere near capacity, whether it was full of ticket holders or not.

I don’t really care for your fantasy of angelic American sports fans, holding each others hands and singing “SPORT is the real winner today!” through glinting teeth following years of headbrace troll-like existence as a tortured child.

Fingers in ears and hands over eyes, you are just yet another American who hilariously tries to paint a picture of unique fan decorum gleaming in gold against the dirt of Europe, while riots at US sporting events break out with more regularity than the UK.

Whenever American football fans riot or ice hockey fans beat the f/ck out of one another, whenever the supporters of basketball or baseball teams go on a cop-taunting, car-torching, window-smashing victory spree, your puppet press treat the violence as a local disturbance or an historical anomaly.

And whenever college football fans engage in riotous behavior that would be considered a national scandal if it happened in Britain (as they frequently do), no one seems terribly inclined to call it hooliganism.

It really is time for the pot to shut the f/ck up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

This post was brought to you by Random Year in American Hooliganism 2008 (The Guardian, Hooliganism: Is Europe REALLY worse than America?):

January 2008: a San Francisco man was shot to death when he left his daughter's high-school basketball game to have a cigarette.

In April Montreal Canadiens fans celebrated with a riot that involves the mass torching of police cars. And Red Sox and New York Yankees fans once again set about trying to kill each other.

In May a Yankees fan driving a car ran down and killed a Red Sox fan who yelled: "Yankees suck".
June, fans of the Boston Celtics celebrated their NBA championship with a traditional window-smashing riot. This was after fans of the defeated Lakers mobbed up and savagely beat Celtics fans in LA. And the month also saw an unusually well publicised mass donnybrook at a Phillies v New York Mets baseball game.

In July Columbus Crew fans greeted visiting West Ham fans with a proper US-style fan punch-up, inspiring one muppet to ask: "We almost never see large-scale fights in other sports. Why does this happen in soccer?"

Also in July, a mob of baseball bat-wielding, "rabid" Red Sox fans beat up a 69-year-old grandad they wrongly suspected of being a Yankees fan. Meanwhile another Red Sox fan lost an eye after being beaten by Cubs fans at a children's party.

August, two Chicago Cubs fans went on trial for beating a Brewers fan so badly he had to have his jaw wired.

September, an NFA game between the Utica Yard Dogs and Troy was abandoned after mass brawling in the stands spilled onto the pitch. And gunfire broke out among the crowd at a high school game in Portland, Oregon.

In October Phillies fans rioted in celebration of their World Series win, engaging in brawls, slinging beer bottles, flipping cars, destroying streetlights, smashing bank windows, wrecking bus shelters, attacking a TV news van, setting fire to trees and looting a luggage store.

This was after "knuckle-dragging Neanderthal" Phillies fans had visited Tampa where, says Tampa Rays owner Stuart Sternberg, they engaged in "behaviour more suitable for a prison yard than a family ballpark." The Philadelphians allegedly cursed at children before throwing food at them, called women "whores", poured beer over a terrified nine-year-old boy, and frightened one Tampa fan so much that he locked himself in a toilet stall until the Philly fans outside got bored of making death threats. That same month police attacked fans of Penn State football team with pepper spray after a victory party turned into an orgy of violence and destruction.

In November a high school soccer game in Massachusetts "almost degenerated into a European-style football brawl" according to a local newspaper. Because, as we all now know, brawls in proper American sports hardly every happen.

Oh, hang on: over in North Carolina a pee wee American football game was stopped after fans and coaches start hitting each other.

In December a mass brawl stopped a high school basketball game in Connecticut. And the NFL game between the Patriots and the Arizona Cardinals saw mass drunkenness, 22 arrests, and a fan slamming into a player on the sidelines.

Also in December, five teenage basketball fans were gunned down after a high school a game in Chicago. And just a few weeks ago Giants fans responded to a play-off loss against the Eagles by going on a car-smashing rampage in the parking lot. This followed soon after the news that the NFL has asked fans with cell phones to rat out the worst offenders in an effort to curb the league's notorious thug-fan problem.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jan/21/steven-wells-hooligan-american-sport

[3 veesinarow]

Game, set and match to E-P.

[No Fixed Abode]

AndI had a mate in the 80's who would regularly blag his way into Man Utd games, including two cup finals where they jumped the barrier. People try it on everywhere if they can get away with it.

The authorities however don't always make such massive cockups that kill people, and then try to pass the blame on those involved and cover up their actions.

Yes, but the point is, this didn't happen to Man Utd.

Liverpool fans have a history of misbehaving badly..........Heysel, Athens (robbing their own fans, breaking into the ground, 3k of ticketless fans got in - they should know better after Hillsborough). Old Trafford Semi final few seasons back, smashed up the concourses and toilets, just because it was United....

So you can see why people don't think it was entirely the police's fault for Hillsborough.

[Extended-Phenotype]

AndI had a mate in the 80's who would regularly blag his way into Man Utd games, including two cup finals where they jumped the barrier. People try it on everywhere if they can get away with it.

The authorities however don't always make such massive cockups that kill people, and then try to pass the blame on those involved and cover up their actions.

Yes, but the point is, this didn't happen to Man Utd.

How fortunate Man United were knocked out in the 6th round.

[No Fixed Abode]

AndI had a mate in the 80's who would regularly blag his way into Man Utd games, including two cup finals where they jumped the barrier. People try it on everywhere if they can get away with it.

The authorities however don't always make such massive cockups that kill people, and then try to pass the blame on those involved and cover up their actions.

Yes, but the point is, this didn't happen to Man Utd.

How fortunate Man United were knocked out in the 6th round.

If they made the final twice, how did they got knocked out in the 6th round?

[Extended-Phenotype]

Yes, but the point is, this didn't happen to Man Utd.

How fortunate Man United were knocked out in the 6th round.

If they made the final twice, how did they got knocked out in the 6th round?

They entered three times that year? How odd.