Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

[Hoop Blah]

To be fair though, and as much as it pains me to side with frimmers on anything, he did.

It was Hoddle who attracted the likes of Guilit to the club and got their young players playing good football. He laid the foundations for everything that followed really. They went from signing the likes of Nick Colgan, Nigel Spackman and Mick Harford to Rocastle, Gullit and Hughes, to Vialli, Lebouef and Petrescu by the time he left.

Gullit signed Vialli and Leboeuf IIRC. Petrescu came from the (presumably equally as progressive, Sheffield Wednesday).

At the end of the day, Frimmers is a doe-eyed Spurs fans heaping praise upon one of his favourite players from his 30s. There's a reason Hoddle is coaching failed footballers in the sunshine and not holding down a top job in the UK, and it's a bit fanciful to suggest he was a better footballer than the 1998 squad even when he was manager.

Still, weirdos attract weirdos I guess.

When I said 'by the time he left' it meant, in my head at least, by the time he left they were in a position to do it (for the record I think it was Hoddle who signed Petrescu, but that's really not the point I'm making). Without Hoddle coming in, they wouldn't have been signing those players.

[chilipepper91]

Italy didn't create - for all their shots - much in the way of genuine chances.

Not so sure about this - they hit the post after 3 minutes (immediately after which, we had our best and only real chance of the game), Lescott had to clear from under his own goal-line to stop Balotelli tapping in, Balotelli shot straight at Hart before Montolivo fired over, Diamanti hit the post (though he didn't mean to of course ) and Johnson blocked Nocerino from 6 yards out with a few minutes of normal time left. Plus they did actually score in extra time but it was rightfully called offside.

I guess it depends whether you define a chance as a shot or the opportunity to shoot, but there were a lot of chances which "on another day" (hate that phrase) would have gone in.

For all the talk about Hodgson getting decisions right through the tournament, I reckon he got the Carroll substitution wrong. Our most frequent passing combination throughout all 120 minutes was Hart to Carroll, and he very rarely found Rooney or Young with his flick-ons simply because Young was stuck marking their right-back Abate and Rooney was too tired to make any runs. If we were going to play the counter-attacking game we needed pace, not an isolated hit-and-hope striker - I remember one point late in the game where Rooney had the ball next to their penalty area with 8 Italians and no English players in shot.

[Hoop Blah]

Oh yeah, the game.

Totally predictable really. Italy much the superior side whilst being mercifully appalling up front (some credit to our back five for this - they all had good tournaments).

Decent first half hour then just dropped and dropped, conceded possession and didn't threaten to score. I do agree with Roy Hodgson in the sense that statistics don't tell you everything. Possession in front of your defence isn't all that important, and Italy didn't create - for all their shots - much in the way of genuine chances.

Does mean you getting fooking tired though and Gerrard cramping up on 71 minutes just proved it. It's not a sustainable style of football in a tournament when you have to play every few days.

Yep, pretty much agreed on that. You can do the high intensity chasing for a period, but for the whole game against good sides with such a succession of games? No, I don't think you can keep that up, especially with the aging midfield we had and the lack of options to interchange.

We do have to be better at keeping the ball. We don't have to constantly pass it, but at times we need to be better at just taking the sting out of the game and keeping the ball for a bit of a rest.

[Maguire]

I think Gullit was the catalyst for most/many of those marque signings but Hoddle did admittedly give Gullit his last big payday.

Still, didn't get Chelsea above 11th - a position topped even by little old Reading in recent years.

[frimmers3]

I think Gullit was the catalyst for most/many of those marque signings but Hoddle did admittedly give Gullit his last big payday.

Still, didn't get Chelsea above 11th - a position topped even by little old Reading in recent years.

care to answer where chelsea were in the years before hoddle took charge?..thought not.

[Maguire]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

[frimmers3]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

you don't see your players in finals either.

[Maguire]

I think Gullit was the catalyst for most/many of those marque signings but Hoddle did admittedly give Gullit his last big payday.

Still, didn't get Chelsea above 11th - a position topped even by little old Reading in recent years.

care to answer where chelsea were in the years before hoddle took charge?..thought not.

already done that you illiterate spastic.

11th the season before he took over. 14th in his first season. 11th the season after that, then 11th again. That's progress for you

[Maguire]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

you don't see your players in finals either.

Get back to the post room

[Maguire]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

We're a country of 4.5 million, how often do you expect us to qualify? But for the record, we beat Brazil in the 98 world cup, were in the 94 world cup which for some reason you were not in.. oh wait.. because we beat you..

So your evidence that this style of football does actually work is to give examples from nearly 20 years ago?

No offence, but I'm not sure Norway are quite what we're trying to emul8 here.

[Hoop Blah]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

And Greece did it once. How have they got on doing it at other times?

[Maguire]

No, your argument was that the style of play causes players to cramp up.
I gave evidence that the Greek and Norwegian players do not cramp up.

This suggests that maybe there is a problem with the England players' fitness levels, and not the tactics.

There may well be an issue with the conditioning of England's players (either basic fitness levels, preparation, recovery, etc) - I accept this.

I find it hard to draw parallel's with Norway's fitness in major competitions because you've not actually been to the finals of any in more than a decade [when you went out in the first round]

[Maguire]

I'm not sure Norway are quite what we're trying to emul8 here.

You have to learn to walk before you can run, and you guys are barely crawling at the moment.

Under Hodgson you have a chance at success if the players do what they are told and are fit enough.
But surprise surprise, people instead want to play like Brazil and are upset about the style of play.
I predict 6 months before you sack him and replace him with some italian wakner for more meaningless unmotivated mediocrity.

Just got to the last 8 of the European championships so it's not all bad. I accept that's par for the course and that we're not one of the 4 best sides in Europe these days.

Don't need a massive revolution (I believe in Hodgson and believe we'll qualify for 2014 as well), just need to improve to bridge the gap between us and the best teams in the world.

[Royal Rother]

We do have to be better at keeping the ball. We don't have to constantly pass it, but at times we need to be better at just taking the sting out of the game and keeping the ball for a bit of a rest.

It's almost like we're embarrassed to do that. When we do try to knock it about for a minute or 2 it's across the back 4 and gets us precisely nowhere - then is almost inevitably concluded with a lump forward when patience is worn thin.

Spain don't care how long they spend in possession without creating a chance, but the knocking around takes place in midfield and is therefore more likely to be the springboard for an accurate pass into the penalty area because they are closer to goal.

e.g. Xavi and Iniesta are quite happy to ping the ball backwards and forwards between themselves for as long as it takes for other players' movements to open up an alternative pass for them.

But overall I don't think even our most gifted players would be comfortable even trying ticka tacka because our footballers are more physical than artistic. Maybe it's a weird macho culture thing... as evidenced by no footballers ever coming out of the closet. (Ok, that's a leap right there! )

[soggy biscuit]

Maguire, I disagree completely.
Norway do it. Greece do it. You don't see our players cramping up

I don't see your players in major tournament finals at all tbh.

We're a country of 4.5 million, how often do you expect us to qualify?

Uruguay has 3.3 million.

that is all

[Gordons Cumming]

We do have to be better at keeping the ball. We don't have to constantly pass it, but at times we need to be better at just taking the sting out of the game and keeping the ball for a bit of a rest.

It's almost like we're embarrassed to do that. When we do try to knock it about for a minute or 2 it's across the back 4 and gets us precisely nowhere - then is almost inevitably concluded with a lump forward when patience is worn thin.

Spain don't care how long they spend in possession without creating a chance, but the knocking around takes place in midfield and is therefore more likely to be the springboard for an accurate pass into the penalty area because they are closer to goal.

e.g. Xavi and Iniesta are quite happy to ping the ball backwards and forwards between themselves for as long as it takes for other players' movements to open up an alternative pass for them.

But overall I don't think even our most gifted players would be comfortable even trying ticka tacka because our footballers are more physical than artistic. Maybe it's a weird macho culture thing... as evidenced by no footballers ever coming out of the closet. (Ok, that's a leap right there! )

We don't play ticka tacka because it's boring.........

Watching Spain & Barcelona is boring for the neutral.

[leww_rfc]

Urugay => south america, suits footballers year round
Norway => north pole, suits skiing 9 months out of 12 have snow

yeah good idea!!

Wales - part aquatic - flooded 9 months out of 12

[Hoop Blah]

We do have to be better at keeping the ball. We don't have to constantly pass it, but at times we need to be better at just taking the sting out of the game and keeping the ball for a bit of a rest.

It's almost like we're embarrassed to do that. When we do try to knock it about for a minute or 2 it's across the back 4 and gets us precisely nowhere - then is almost inevitably concluded with a lump forward when patience is worn thin.

Spain don't care how long they spend in possession without creating a chance, but the knocking around takes place in midfield and is therefore more likely to be the springboard for an accurate pass into the penalty area because they are closer to goal.

e.g. Xavi and Iniesta are quite happy to ping the ball backwards and forwards between themselves for as long as it takes for other players' movements to open up an alternative pass for them.

But overall I don't think even our most gifted players would be comfortable even trying ticka tacka because our footballers are more physical than artistic. Maybe it's a weird macho culture thing... as evidenced by no footballers ever coming out of the closet. (Ok, that's a leap right there! )

I totally agree. It's what I'm getting at when I say it's more a cultural thing than a coaching issue with the way we play. Our players can pass and control the ball, we're just not bred to do it enough at the right times. That's what makes our domestic game so exciting at times, but it is a little flawed when the opposition aren't doing the same thing.

[Ian Royal]

England do produce technically competent players its just when they get high enough up the professional ladder it is coached out of them, Rooney and Wilshere are examples in recent times where it would look like they would break the mould. Unfortunately Ferguson trained the flair out of Rooney's game (just watch footage to see how different a player he was pre and post united move) and the physicality of the English game forced Wilshere to go from a attacking winger/forward to a central mid.

It's the coaches and managers that need to start changing their mindset for it to start change elsewhere, fortunately there are the expections in England with the likes of Rodgers, Martinez and even the likes of Holloway who have studied the european game and adapted features it into their own teams play.

I agree with this. Also the fans in England don't seem to want to watch possession football. There were many complaints on here during the Spain games about them being boring.

But few about France, Italy or Germany. Who all play far better possession football than England, yet manage to be much more exciting than Spain.

[Ark Royal]

I'm not sure Norway are quite what we're trying to emul8 here.

You have to learn to walk before you can run, and you guys are barely crawling at the moment.

Under Hodgson you have a chance at success if the players do what they are told and are fit enough.
But surprise surprise, people instead want to play like Brazil and are upset about the style of play.
I predict 6 months before you sack him and replace him with some italian wakner for more meaningless unmotivated mediocrity.

Just got to the last 8 of the European championships so it's not all bad. I accept that's par for the course and that we're not one of the 4 best sides in Europe these days.

Don't need a massive revolution (I believe in Hodgson and believe we'll qualify for 2014 as well), just need to improve to bridge the gap between us and the best teams in the world.

Sorry, Mags but I think that to bridge the gap between us and the top eight teams in the world will require a MASSIVE revolution and a generational change in our method of play. Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, France et al are not going to stand still and kindly give us permission to catch up.

These exits from major competitions will be repeated until there is a complete sea-change in our players' development from the age of when they are old enough to kick a ball - or should I say old enough to keep a ball. That will take at least 15-20 years, but I would gladly put up with that. Spain were not too long ago a second-tier nation, as were Portugal and France, so it can be done if the structure is put in place. But will the FA do that given that the Premier League has everyone's balls in a tight grip?

Hodgson said he does not pay attention to ball-retention stats in the defensive and midfield areas. What. The. Fcuk. We are inevitably doomed with that attitude. Watching Hart, Terry and Lescott hoof away possession and Rooney just run into dead-ends time and time again just made me scream at the the telly in exasperation.

However, I think the attempt will be doomed as long as the Premier League has a money-bloated grip on things. I think the England national team has gone continually downhill since 96 and was not one of the major reasons for founding the Premier League to aid the improvement of the national team?

And if anyone in the media says Rooney is a 'world-class player' once more, I will go completely postal.