Euro 2012 - Knockout Stages

[Ian Royal]

Oh yeah, the game.

Totally predictable really. Italy much the superior side whilst being mercifully appalling up front (some credit to our back five for this - they all had good tournaments).

Decent first half hour then just dropped and dropped, conceded possession and didn't threaten to score. I do agree with Roy Hodgson in the sense that statistics don't tell you everything. Possession in front of your defence isn't all that important, and Italy didn't create - for all their shots - much in the way of genuine chances.

Does mean you getting fooking tired though and Gerrard cramping up on 71 minutes just proved it. It's not a sustainable style of football in a tournament when you have to play every few days.

Yep, pretty much agreed on that. You can do the high intensity chasing for a period, but for the whole game against good sides with such a succession of games? No, I don't think you can keep that up, especially with the aging midfield we had and the lack of options to interchange.

We do have to be better at keeping the ball. We don't have to constantly pass it, but at times we need to be better at just taking the sting out of the game and keeping the ball for a bit of a rest.

In every game I saw moments when we'd turn over possession from an oppo attack and rather than put the foot on the ball and look, or play a simple short pass, the defender / midfielder would look to spring the oppo defence with a long ball into a channel when it was about 1-2 attackers on 4-6 defenders.

That combined with sitting deeper and deeper, and the desire to turn possession into an immediate scoring opportunity are what let us down in retaining the ball. We lose patience after a few short passes at the back, that are for the sake of it rather than to try and pull the oppo out of position, then a defender decides to force the issue and punt it long.

[Hoop Blah]

Yet another poster goes on about his misconception of possession/direct football.
So the theory now is "players are afraid to keep it", no.. that's not the problem.

The problem is that when they play for their clubs they have great teammates like Van Persie, Cabeye, Drogba, Modric, etc.
Then the teams are as a whole quite good, and have a plethora of options on the bench.

So then when the national team meets, what happens? There's no options in midfield, central midfield pairing is only half fit, Parker has had injury concerns for ages, no backup, Rooney out of form, etc.

You seem to totally disregard that there aren't so many players to pick from, that most of the good players in the top division are foreign, and that most the good english players are notoriously ill-behaved with alcohol problems and psychological/personality issues, and thus the major problem is not the style of play or fear of possession, the major problem is that no matter what tactics you play the players are:
-not many to choose from
-unfit physically, mentally or in general unprofessional drunkards like gascoigne/collymore, or raging racists, or somehow getting into trouble otherwise rape or GBH whatever
-do not take tactical instructions well, only play for themself (as exampled by Rooney's personal decision to stop tracking pirlo after about 55-60 minutes of play)

Not sure why I bother responding to such tripe, but we do have midfielders capable of doing all they need to do, but there was a real glut of them unavailable for the tournament this time around and so we were stuck with what we had, which was Gerrard and Parker with a very average (but potentially decent) Henderson as back up.

Players like Wilshire, Lampard, Barry, Cleverly, Rodwell, Huddleston, Carrick and Scholes are all technically able to do what we'd like them to do (keep the ball for longer periods) but they weren't available. We don't produce the depth of talent to cover for that number of players being unavailable (partly because our players are restricted in their top flight chances by foreign imports) and that is an issue, but the ability of English produced players isn't as big a deal as some would make out.

If you lookeed at the stats the BBC showed in advance of the Italy game you'll see that Gerrard was better at keeping the ball (and creating goals) than Pirlo. Most would argue that he can't keep possession though.

[Ian Royal]

You can't take donkeys to the racetrack and try to outpace black caviar for the race win.

No offence Ideal, but playing hoofball for decades is what led England into this position. Norway may do well with the style your advocating, but it's because they can't compete any other way. We'd rather England don't take a backwards step, and instead step forward a little. Because we can compete far more effectively with the likes of Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands etc.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Personally I'd put some effort into looking at what other nations do that we don't. Even forgetting Spain, Germany and Italy for a while, why can small countries like Denmark and Croatia produce players that are technically better than ours? What do they do right, or more specifically, what do we do wrong?

At what age does it start to go wrong? Is it just academy age training, or is it more fundamental? If you took a group of English kids at about 9 years old, and played a similar age group from Spain, would you be able to see differences already?

We have done that over the last 10 years or so though. It's taken too long to get the national centre built, but it's something we took from the French when they were the team producing the quality talent. We also spent time looking at how the Dutch do things and I believe both of those projects have had a lot of input in to the way we've restructured youth coaching and the acadamies over the last decade or so.

The German model that RR refers to is really interesting. Somehow they've nurtured the quality they had, whilst picking up some othe religable players, and formed a team that have, to a degree, come up through the ranks together. We had that with the Nevilles, Beckham's etc, but they didn't fulfil that potential. Why not I've no idea, but I think it's a cultural thing as much as anything.
.

I remember watching a Czech 2nd division match a few years back, and it saddened me that even at that level they were more comfortable on the ball (ok, and shit at most other things).

Elsewhere, ball control is seen a basic fundamental skill, treated like a foundation for all other abilities.

Here, it's almost an afterthought. Building an elite training centre isn't going to change that. The problems seems rather more fundamental.

[chilipepper91]

It's not all our own fault - nearly every team we've played this tournament has put pressure on us high up the field because they realise we're not good enough to pass it around to find space. And, of course, we don't have the guile or patience to knock it around for a prolonged period of time to find the opening.

Whereas we're content to let teams keep the ball and maintain our own rigid defensive structure. Including when we're attacking - as I noted earlier, Rooney had the ball on the edge of the Italy box late on in the game, but was surrounded by about 8 Italy players with no white shirt in sight. If nobody's coming forward to support then what can we do? Quite simply the 4-4-2 won't work in a system like that because the two strikers will always be isolated, or having to drop deeper, which, lessens the chances going forward.

Italy of course do play the midfield diamond, which allowed them 4 CMs to dominate possession in the middle. Their wing-backs pushed on too which forced our own wingers back. If we want to play the counter-attacking game we need wingers who can actually link defence and attack., and not just with the long ball forward.

[Royal Rother]

I remember watching a Czech 2nd division match a few years back, and it saddened me that even at that level they were more comfortable on the ball (ok, and shit at most other things).

Elsewhere, ball control is seen a basic fundamental skill, treated like a foundation for all other abilities.

Here, it's almost an afterthought. Building an elite training centre isn't going to change that. The problems seems rather more fundamental.

Absolutely, as I said last week, even supposed minnows like Macedonia, Moldova, Japan, Montenegro, Switzerland look more comfortable on the ball than England.

And as you say the game should be built from skills upwards, but too early the kids play on pitches that are too big for them so the ability to run, and keep running, becomes as, if not more, important than the ability to control a ball and shimmy.

Evidence of my eyes is that generally (obviously not always) small kids tend to have better ball skills than the bigger kids, but they are considered less valuable because they can't get up and down the pitch as effectively. The small kids get muscled off the ball, outpaced and quickly lose heart. Especially when they moaned at by team-mates and parents...

[Schards#2]

Good luck with that.
You'll end up playing non-committal boring tripe, just as you have been under crap-hell-o and the svengahli.

No surprise really, England fans & media are the England team's worst enemies.

Don't see a lot wrong with Sven's reign tbh, took over a shambles, got us to three successive q/f's playing decent football at least in 2002 and 2004, followed a reversion to a shambles as soon as he left.

[Royal Rother]

If we want to play the counter-attacking game we need wingers who can actually link defence and attack., and not just with the long ball forward.

I am shit at reading formations etc. but, in the absence of any really decent wingers, can we not play with 3 central defenders at the back, 5 in midfield, including, as opposed to out and out wingers, full backs Cole and Johnson (both of whom are effective going forward) and 2 upfront?

Would that not offer greater flexibility and support when flooding forward and help to prevent us getting out-numbered in midfield which is generally where we lose games imo?

Obviously if we developed a decent winger then that could change to accommodate.

[Hoop Blah]

Here, it's almost an afterthought. Building an elite training centre isn't going to change that. The problems seems rather more fundamental.

I kind of agree, I didn't really buy into the idea that the French success was all about Claire Fontaine (it was more about having Zidane and Viera), but the thinking is that the centre will be used as much to educate the coaches and further change the culture of our football to address the issues we seem to be saying are the cause of our limited ability on the ball.

I'm not sure I totally agree that it's going to work, but thats the logic.

[chilipepper91]

If we want to play the counter-attacking game we need wingers who can actually link defence and attack., and not just with the long ball forward.

I am shit at reading formations etc. but, in the absence of any really decent wingers, can we not play with 3 central defenders at the back, 5 in midfield, including, as opposed to out and out wingers, full backs Cole and Johnson (both of whom are effective going forward) and 2 upfront?

Would that not offer greater flexibility and support when flooding forward and help to prevent us getting out-numbered in midfield which is generally where we lose games imo?

Obviously if we developed a decent winger then that could change to accommodate.

It's an option but it would only work if we were willing to use the wing-backs as exactly that, and not just full-backs. I'm sure it was orders from Hodgson but after the first 5 minutes Cole and Johnson barely got forward for an overlap.

The other option would be to go for an Italian style set-up and have 4 ball-playing midfielders across the park, then ask the wing-backs to push on to create overlaps. Look at how often Abate and (to a lesser extent) Balzaretti had the ball on the flank near our penalty area, then their four midfielders were hanging back near the edge of the penalty area to mop up. We were set up to allow them to do this, though - as soon as we cleared they had at least 4 v 2 and could easily retain possession.

[No Fixed Abode]

What did we expect with so many Liverpool players in the squad?

[On High]

The most important question on the thread still remains unanswered...

A German victory with the weather we're having in Bavaria at the moment = me in with a very good chance of picking up a drunk 23 year old and getting my brown wings 2012. Leaving the house now - pray for Starfish.

[superreadingfan]

What did we expect with so many Liverpool players in the squad?

Stevie G is the best player in the world according to some

[No Fixed Abode]

What did we expect with so many Liverpool players in the squad?

Stevie G is the best player in the world according to some

Yep and totally domin8ed by Pirlo.

[Mr Angry]

What did we expect with so many Liverpool players in the squad?

How many Liverpool players missed penalties?

[Victor Meldrew]

If we want to play the counter-attacking game we need wingers who can actually link defence and attack., and not just with the long ball forward.

I am shit at reading formations etc. but, in the absence of any really decent wingers, can we not play with 3 central defenders at the back, 5 in midfield, including, as opposed to out and out wingers, full backs Cole and Johnson (both of whom are effective going forward) and 2 upfront?

Would that not offer greater flexibility and support when flooding forward and help to prevent us getting out-numbered in midfield which is generally where we lose games imo?

Obviously if we developed a decent winger then that could change to accommodate.

I know that I should be flattered by immitation but with this and one of your posts on this same page you have just repeated what I said earlier.
Is it only we more mature people can see the light especially regarding kids' football?

I read earlier also what Ark wrote that he would scream if he read yet again about Rooney being world class.
I feel a bit the same when I keep reading that Wilshere will be the answer to everything-the kid has potential but that is all that it is and the same goes for the Ox who looked what he is in this tournament,a young inexperienced kid who one day might be quite good.

I also agree with the poster who said about Currie and Hudson-they were as capable as Pirlo but ,as with Hoddle,the emphasis was on hard running and 40 years later it's still the same.

[Man Friday]

Comment I made on this forum 30 April 2012:

"Rooney - most overrated (English) player ever. Great against Wigan etc. Doesn't perform on big stage."

[Royal Rother]

I know that I should be flattered by immitation but with this and one of your posts on this same page you have just repeated what I said earlier.

Really? Pure accident - and rather worrying actually.

[shadesrwrf]

Sorry, Mags but I think that to bridge the gap between us and the top eight teams in the world will require a MASSIVE revolution and a generational change in our method of play. Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, France et al are not going to stand still and kindly give us permission to catch up.

These exits from major competitions will be repeated until there is a complete sea-change in our players' development from the age of when they are old enough to kick a ball - or should I say old enough to keep a ball. That will take at least 15-20 years, but I would gladly put up with that. Spain were not too long ago a second-tier nation, as were Portugal and France, so it can be done if the structure is put in place. But will the FA do that given that the Premier League has everyone's balls in a tight grip?

Hodgson said he does not pay attention to ball-retention stats in the defensive and midfield areas. What. The. Fcuk. We are inevitably doomed with that attitude. Watching Hart, Terry and Lescott hoof away possession and Rooney just run into dead-ends time and time again just made me scream at the the telly in exasperation.

However, I think the attempt will be doomed as long as the Premier League has a money-bloated grip on things. I think the England national team has gone continually downhill since 96 and was not one of the major reasons for founding the Premier League to aid the improvement of the national team?

And if anyone in the media says Rooney is a 'world-class player' once more, I will go completely postal.

Close the thread.

AR has said all that needs to be said. There is not one player in the England squad right now who could be described as "world class". However good a manager Roy Hodgson is the fact remains, you can't polish a turd.

Once upon a time there were restrictions on the number of foreign players a club could employ. It meant that teams had to invest in and nurture home grown talent, and as a consequence the England manager had a far wider choice of top flight players. These days it's all about making a fast buck. Why spend money developing English players when you can buy in the finished article from somewhere else?

[soggy biscuit]