by The Rouge » 05 Sep 2012 14:00
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 14:03
The RougeAlexander Litvinenko As an IPS it has a legal (and verified) obligation to be democratic, and it does this completely.
But it represents its members, as any membership organisation does.
Just because there are a whole lot of people who want the benefits of representation as a right, without being prepared to put anything at all in (even a relatively small sum like £10 a year) doesn't make it undemocratic.
If people want to change it then join it and change it - but sitting on the sidelines sniping whilst saying "I'm not joining because they don't represent me" is a frankly pathetic argument.
With respect Dirkers, I don't think you get it. If you think something:
- won't represent you
- is elitist
- is self-promotional
- is occasionally embarrasing
- supports the clapper/rumblestix/music after goals breed of fans that is out of touch with many traditional football fans
then to suggest that people are being 'pathetic' if they don't join it and change it from the inside seems waaay out of touch to me.
And it really isn't about the tenner.
- won't represent you
- is elitist
- is self-promotional
- is occasionally embarrasing
- supports the clapper/rumblestix/music after goals breed of fans that is out of touch with many traditional football fans
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 14:12
The Rouge As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve
- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.
- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's alos no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.
- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.
by The Rouge » 05 Sep 2012 14:37
Alexander LitvinenkoThe Rouge As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve
I was just outlining an option. Not everyone has enough time to do more than fill out the odd survey or send the odd email - it doesn't necessarily mean their voice should go unheard.
- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.
I have read your thoughts on this - but it is an option if you feel that the current organisation cannot be changed.
- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's alos no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.
OK - so its not the largest, but I would argue it is the most passionate and there is only one significantly active Reading FC fan forum, so I still think it is pretty important. Your less than 100 posters is laughable.
- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.
From your rather brash dismissal of every other option, it is clear that this is your preferred option and it is clear you think it is the right approach. I think you are naive to think that an influx of new members will change the majority decisions, nor change the direction they take. I may just pay a tenner to have a vote on things but doubt it will make any difference (like voting Lab/Lib in Wandsworth) - then I will face the shame of knowing that MY organisation's season contribution has been running coaches, producing one clapper (you know to help real fans make some noise) and to source flask-carrying imbeciles to splutter non-questions on a radio show.
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 14:58
The RougeAlexander LitvinenkoThe Rouge As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve
I was just outlining an option. Not everyone has enough time to do more than fill out the odd survey or send the odd email - it doesn't necessarily mean their voice should go unheard.
Fully understand and respect that.
- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.
I have read your thoughts on this - but it is an option if you feel that the current organisation cannot be changed.
It certainly is. But I'm suire it would be counter-productive. So many clubs where there are two or more supporters' organisations provide the perfect platform for a club to play "divide and rule"
- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's also no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.
OK - so its not the largest, but I would argue it is the most passionate and there is only one significantly active Reading FC fan forum, so I still think it is pretty important. Your less than 100 posters is laughable.
Its the loudest, but who is anyone to generalise about one set/type of supporter being more passionate than others? Although people on HNA drift in and out all the time I don't think there is ever more than a subset of about 100 who actively post in any single period. I'd say there's hardcore of about 50 and the other 50 or so are people who come or go. Look through the member lists and the forums - this place is a lot less significant than it thinks. But even if it's 200, 300 or 500 that doesn't defeat the argument.
- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.
From your rather brash dismissal of every other option, it is clear that this is your preferred option and it is clear you think it is the right approach. I think you are naive to think that an influx of new members will change the majority decisions, nor change the direction they take. I may just pay a tenner to have a vote on things but doubt it will make any difference (like voting Lab/Lib in Wandsworth) - then I will face the shame of knowing that MY organisation's season contribution has been running coaches, producing one clapper (you know to help real fans make some noise) and to source flask-carrying imbeciles to splutter non-questions on a radio show.
I think it's the ONLY approach. People are unhappy with the organisation, people change the organisation. To think you can't so it's not worth trying is just defeatist. And I'm sure that it wouldn't take very much to change the demographic within STAR as required. There are so few active participants in reality that peopel prepared to DO and not just say that others should do would be welcomed in and would make a real difference.
No comments on my final summary?
by The Rouge » 05 Sep 2012 15:16
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 15:31
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 15:37
The Rouge I don't want to talk about which fans are more passionate, or better fans. All I know is that the views of people on here and the views of those in the pubs on match day are markedly different and the out-of-touch feeling of STAR and Reading FC has been apparent for a long time. I am neither a real traditionalist (although I do think we should have full hoops) nor a subscriber to the new sanitised/pantomime-esque way of supporting teams, but I do feel disillusioned with the direction and those that are slightly more tradtional/been southbankers etc even more so.
by ZacNaloen » 05 Sep 2012 15:39
by The Rouge » 05 Sep 2012 15:41
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 15:44
ZacNaloen About the numbers Dirk, arent you assuming all star members are as active as hobnobs top members? We've already heard stories of members signing up paying their fee and hearing nothing from star. I really would not be shocked to find that this rings true form a large number of the membership.
by ZacNaloen » 05 Sep 2012 15:45
by Schards#2 » 05 Sep 2012 16:00
by glenroyal » 05 Sep 2012 16:07
Alexander Litvinenko
It can be changed, but it won't be changed by people on message boards wanting to see them wiped off the face of the earth. Like everything else in this world, it'll be changed by people getting out from behind their keyboards and making a contribution and making a difference and putting some effort in themselves, rather than just wanting things done for them and whining when they're not done the way they wanted.
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 16:08
The Rouge OK got you.
Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election
then I am out.
In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.
by Royal Lady » 05 Sep 2012 16:11
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 16:15
by The Rouge » 05 Sep 2012 16:15
Alexander LitvinenkoThe Rouge OK got you.
Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election
then I am out.
In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.
No-one needs to "oust the board" - that's an over-simplifciation. A wider range of people on the board with a wider range of views and backgrounds, would make a difference. Change takes time, it isn't instant, and it's not a board like Parliament where everything is done on votes and party lines. If someone wants to drive something or do a project they usually only have to convince the rest of the board its a good idea and they get given a mandate for it.
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 16:19
The RougeAlexander LitvinenkoThe Rouge OK got you.
Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election
then I am out.
In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.
No-one needs to "oust the board" - that's an over-simplifciation. A wider range of people on the board with a wider range of views and backgrounds, would make a difference. Change takes time, it isn't instant, and it's not a board like Parliament where everything is done on votes and party lines. If someone wants to drive something or do a project they usually only have to convince the rest of the board its a good idea and they get given a mandate for it.
I had actually assumed that it was more democratic than it was. I would like my views represented, and the views of the thousands currently unrepresented (my view) at present, but I don't have the option of running for board.
by Alexander Litvinenko » 05 Sep 2012 16:20
Royal Lady Well, I can only say as I see it and having been given the "evils" all game by a (who I presume to be still) member of STAR after I'd voiced a few strong opinions on the subject* - I'm kind of thinking I'm a marked woman and no-one would listen to me anyway! For example, say, for example, Yellowcoat is a member of STAR - do you really think he will put aside his prejudices/infatuation of me and actually listen to what I might have to suggest?
*I'm guessing this was the reason as I'd not seen them for, literally, years but if looks could kill I'd be six feet under! Lol.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests