Justice For The 96

[frimmers3]

there are some who need no name check that have exposed themselves as shallow ignorant embittered apologies for men.

[No Fixed Abode]

So a crowd will act like a crowd and that makes it's ok does it?

Are you deliberately misunderstanding, or are you just a bit thick?

Acting like a crowd doesn't mean "acting like a mob". It means that when you have a large number of people in a confined space, they way people move and act is different to what they do if they have a load of space.

As a result, anywhere where there's large crowds in confined areas, those crowds need to be managed to control the flow of people so dangerous situations don't develop.

Do you remember the early days of the Madejski Stadium, when there used to be a staircase down the slope in the south east corner. After a couple of games it got fenced off and eventually removed, as it was realised it was a disaster waiting to happen. It's not that Reading fans were acting like a mob and pushing people down the staircase in their impatience to get away, but simply that when people get confined into a space like that, it's much harder to control your exact movements.

Completely disagree with you there.

I was out driving today and you know what, you get some selfish drivers doing all they can to overtake/undertake you by going in incorrect lanes etc. They're only thinking of themselves and how they can get from A to B as quickly as they can regardless of anyone else's safety on the road. So I'll use this analogy for Hillsborough.

[MmmMonsterMunch]

I read an article online at work today from a steward. He'd estimated there could have been as many as 74k in there when it held 54k.

I will try to find it.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I read an article online at work today from a steward. He'd estimated there could have been as many as 74k in there when it held 54k.

I will try to find it.

Yeah. Sadly when they did the inquiry they actually counted the number of people in the end from photographic evidence, and it wasn't even overfilled as I recall. The two central pens were overfilled, but the two either side were underfilled. That was a huge part of the problem. It was in four sections, but there was no way of making sure there was an even distribution in each.

Given that two sides of Hillsborough were seated then, and there were no problems at the other end, this steward must have been thinking that somehow 30,000 were packed into that end, so we can safely disregard his opinion as a load of crap.


It's an end with a history of problems - exactly the same problems, in earlier years. Quite why people want to make up their own reality is beyond me. I guess it's a twist on the old quote about genius having its limits.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

So a crowd will act like a crowd and that makes it's ok does it?

Are you deliberately misunderstanding, or are you just a bit thick?

Acting like a crowd doesn't mean "acting like a mob". It means that when you have a large number of people in a confined space, they way people move and act is different to what they do if they have a load of space.

As a result, anywhere where there's large crowds in confined areas, those crowds need to be managed to control the flow of people so dangerous situations don't develop.

Do you remember the early days of the Madejski Stadium, when there used to be a staircase down the slope in the south east corner. After a couple of games it got fenced off and eventually removed, as it was realised it was a disaster waiting to happen. It's not that Reading fans were acting like a mob and pushing people down the staircase in their impatience to get away, but simply that when people get confined into a space like that, it's much harder to control your exact movements.

Completely disagree with you there.

I was out driving today and you know what, you get some selfish drivers doing all they can to overtake/undertake you by going in incorrect lanes etc. They're only thinking of themselves and how they can get from A to B as quickly as they can regardless of anyone else's safety on the road. So I'll use this analogy for Hillsborough.

So you went for option b in my question then.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

There is evidence they were storming the gates in Athens but ssssh don't mention that as you're not empathising apparently.

God forbid that anyone should be even partly responsible for their own actions!

What is this. A oxf*rd retard tag team?

[From Despair To Where?]

I can only assume that the bulk of those determined to be dispespectful where not attending football matches in the late 80's and can have no first hand idea of the level of contempt with which football fans were held by the police, the clubs and the political authorities.

That it took the deaths of 96 people to force change is bad enough, and yes, noone can deny the fans themselves were at times part of the problem, but the warning signs were there years before and like Bradford before it, Hillsborough was always a case of not if, but when. That it took 23 years of lies and deceit to get to the truth and for those culpable to accept responsibility is a disgrace.

The environment in which football is played has changed immessurably in those 23 years and I would like to think that the circumstances that lead to the tragedy could never happen again. It's a bit trite to say that that is the victims' legacy, but it is important for EVERYONE to know the truth behind their deaths. To paraphrase Voltaire, that's the very least we owe them.

[bobbybottler]

Interesting interview with David Mellor on R5 this morning who was sports minister at the time. He said 'Thatcher didn't like football or football fans'

Was quite surprising as he just seemed to throw it in there without being asked about it. Maybe there is some significance in there, maybe not.

FTR - the Minister of Sport was Colin Moynihan, was that who was being interviewed?

Thatcher certainly didn't like football*, I don't think that Moynihan did either, they were planning to bring in ID cards for football fans at the time. That would have been when Mellor was a minor political figure and a Fulham fan.

* joke about Blackburn at this point

[DelBoyRodders]

My 2 pence worth.

Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy. The police were complete arseholes, covered it up & many were left to perish that could have survived.

HOWEVER

Despite all this, a large chunk Liverpool fans continue to 'bunk' into European away games by having fake or photocopied tickets, even stealing them off kids!!! This is an article written by an LFC fan:
----------------------------------------

Athens was very different. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ticket allocation – and few could argue that 17,000 was enough to satisfy Liverpool fans’ demand – there were people at the stadium who were determined to get into the match by whatever means necessary.

In recent years, there have been a number of incidents – mostly unreported – where Liverpool supporters have charged turnstiles in massive numbers, setting up dangerous situations.

At Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi-final two years ago, a very dangerous crush ensued when Scousers broke through the gates. Away to PSV Eindhoven in the quarter-final this season, there were frightening moments outside the ground and the behaviour of ticketless fans provoked some harsh exchanges on the internet forums.

It is a problem that will not go away. “Bunking-in” is not just the last resort of the desperate fan; there are a substantial minority among Liverpool’s travelling support who see getting into a game without paying as a badge of honour. A number of books written about the experiences of Liverpool fans in the 1970s and 1980s have mythologised bunking-in and the younger generation, seeking to emulate their elders, have little compunction about sneaking into a ground and occupying someone else’s seat.

Mostly, they are young Scousers – and those with out-of-town accents and tickets who try to get their seats back can find themselves in unpleasant confrontations.

As the game moves upmarket and seeks to keep its traditional constituency outside the stadium while the corporate fans feast like kings inside, bunking-in will become a bigger problem.

Some Liverpool supporters even see it as a guerrilla act, the ultimate revenge of the disenfranchised fan. Priced out of the game? That’s OK, it’s free to the bunkers and they have the added satisfaction of making sure that they are not putting any money in the filthy-rich coffers of football’s billionaires. It is a class war statement for some.

But what they forget is that such behaviour gives the police licence to crack heads – and invariably, like on Wednesday night, it’s not the Scallies and bunkers who suffer. Having seen their lines swamped earlier in the day, the police were taking no chances with a second humiliation and took out their frustration on people with tickets.

That horde swarming over the gates are the flip side of the fanaticism we saw at Anfield against Barcelona and Chelsea. The bunkers want to get into the ground and all the police in Athens could not stop them. It might take a disaster to do that.

If it does, then it will be a very different tragedy to Hillsborough. Because then we – the men and boys whose desperation to get into the game makes us take wild risks – will have to shoulder the blame. And that’s too high a price to pay to see a football match.

----------------------------------

If LFC 'fans' want to honour the memories of those that lost their lives, then perhaps they should stop acting like cnuts and realise they don't have a divine right to get in free to football matches. No other club in the UK behaves like that. Feel free to have a go at me - I don't give a shit. A large proportion of their fanbase are cnuts.

Brilliant post and spot on!
But still some on here won't accept that Liverpool fans would have behaved like this on the day of Hillsborough 1989.

[sam1]

Whether any Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster by their actions or not, the Police and the grounds staff had a duty of care to them. It's like saying if a fan had started a fire then it was acceptable to allow 96 to burn to death cos it was one of their fault.

[Wimb]

Just read the report, it's absolutely shocking and so very, very sad to read at just how many warnings the authorities had that something like this could happen and just how many opportunities they missed to prevent the deaths of 96 people, even up to a few minutes before kick-off.

[sam1]

I honestly can't read any articles about it or I won't sleep tonight.

[Jerry St Clair]

I read an article online at work today from a steward. He'd estimated there could have been as many as 74k in there when it held 54k.

I will try to find it.

How qualified was this steward to estimate crowd numbers?

I'm more inclined to believe subsequent analysis by independent safety experts who actually estimate that the Leppings Lane terrace as a whole was actually under capacity. The side pens were estimated to be around 60-70% full. It was the central pens that were grossly over-crowded. The picture below was taken at 2.15. It clearly shows the central pens already quite full, and the side pens virtually empty.

[No Fixed Abode]

Whether any Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster by their actions or not, the Police and the grounds staff had a duty of care to them. It's like saying if a fan had started a fire then it was acceptable to allow 96 to burn to death cos it was one of their fault.

Whilst I agree with some of that - it works both ways. I have a duty of care to act in a proper manner in public when the police aren't about. If I misbehave out of the watchful eye of the law - is that the police's fault too?

[sam1]

Of course not. The Police WERE there that day and thus had a duty of care.

[sam1]

And with respect Kes, if it had been Chelsea fans then your opinion would differ. The fact you keep mentioning the John Terry case is proof enough

[No Fixed Abode]

Of course not. The Police WERE there that day and thus had a duty of care.

Yes - but that's the point. They were there but they also need the public's co-operation too.

So if a fan got in the opposing end and started stabbing someone to death it's the stewards fault or police's fault someone got in the ground with a knife? The stewards or police would be partially to blame for not carrying out their searches properly, but ultimately it would be the person with the knifes fault.

[Wimb]

Of course not. The Police WERE there that day and thus had a duty of care.

Yes - but that's the point. They were there but they also need the public's co-operation too.

So if a fan got in the opposing end and started stabbing someone to death it's the stewards fault or police's fault someone got in the ground with a knife?

If the stewards and police were required to check the spectators for weapons and knives on admission than yes they'd have to take a large portion of the blame for failing to do their jobs.

The difference here is that those you're accusing of being unruly or not acting with due care, had no intention to hurt or injure anybody. if the relevant safety procedures and policing had been done right then the greatest sin of those you're criticising for not being decent enough, would have been to deny somebody else the chance to watch a game they'd paid for.

[exileinleeds]

You know for a fact, do you, that no other club ever sees ticketless fans arrive at games. You know that?

And much more pertinently, what on earth does that have to do with this terrible tragedy, for which the fans have been completely absolved of blame.

Oh ffs, we have a twat on this very portal who thinks it massively cool/funny/clever to "jib" into grounds.

He is a thief, he is a oxf*rd. Not quite sure that he deserves to die for it.


Hillsborough was unsafe. Strangely the only organisation who refused to waive previllage on documents submitted to the enquiry was Royal Sun Alliance. The insurers of SWFC.

The police changed the oic a matter of weeks in advance, to an inexperienced officer who clearly panicked.

The ethos was about crowd control- not crowd safety. It would have made more sense to ask for kick off to be delayed for 1/2 hour than to open gates- they didn't even have Sky to answer to.

The government of the day were not in any position to be critical of SYP. They had done the miners strike- and were fundamental in implimenting government policy of breaking unions- and Liverpool, lets face it, the face of the militant was in Liverpool.

The fans were not political- that day. They were me and you. They wanted to watch their team do well. Half the people who died were under 21. Kids. Younger than most who post on here. Half of them could, perhaps, have been saved.

I am sure that some of those involved that day had been drinking. Hands up who ever went to a game without a couple of drinks? Some maybe didn't have tickets- touts were commonplace in the 80's- one reason it is now illegal- none of them deserved to die.

The OIC lost control, froze, made bad decisions, retired on full pension at 46. Football was not fashionable or rich, fans were "hooligans" and trouble...easy targets for blame.
When is it ever acceptable for statements to be changed?


Children never came home from a football match.

[No Fixed Abode]

Of course not. The Police WERE there that day and thus had a duty of care.

Yes - but that's the point. They were there but they also need the public's co-operation too.

So if a fan got in the opposing end and started stabbing someone to death it's the stewards fault or police's fault someone got in the ground with a knife?

If the stewards and police were required to check the spectators for weapons and knives on admission than yes they'd have to take a large portion of the blame for failing to do their jobs.

The difference here is that those you're accusing of being unruly or not acting with due care, had no intention to hurt or injure anybody. if the relevant safety procedures and policing had been done right then the greatest sin of those you're criticising for not being decent enough, would have been to deny somebody else the chance to watch a game they'd paid for.

Yes - but if I was getting on a packed tube and pushed/shoved someone to get on and they were injured, it's a consequence of my action. I didn't INTEND to injure the person but I did - and have to take some responsibility. Must be the police's fault and London Underground as they have a duty of care to all their passengers.