Justice For The 96

[Wimb]

Again, that's exactly why if someone did get injured because you pushed at the back, you wouldn't get sued or arrested, it would be those who manage and police the station who failed to ensure that your pushing didn't lead to an injury. The law and most people accept that unfortunately there are going to be people that are selfish, it's human nature and if you frame rules and regulations on the assumption that everyone is going to be well behaved you'll be totally and 100% f**ked on a regular basis.

It's like the Bradford fire. Technically whoever threw that 1 cigarette down that started the fire was to blame but do you blame him for the tragedy?

Why you insist on quibbling over a very, very small percentage chance that some slightly better behaviour MIGHT have made an impact is quite beyond me.

[No Fixed Abode]

It's like the Bradford fire. Technically whoever threw that 1 cigarette down that started the fire was to blame but do you blame him for the tragedy?

Yes, of course I do. He shouldn't have been so careless.

[No Fixed Abode]

Why you insist on quibbling over a very, very small percentage chance that some slightly better behaviour MIGHT have made an impact is quite beyond me.

Because the actions of few can have a devastating effect on thousands.

Only takes one tree, to make 1000 matches
Only takes one match, to burn A thousand trees

[Jerry St Clair]

Only takes one tree, to make 1000 matches
Only takes one match, to burn A thousand trees

Sage, bro, sage.

[Wimb]

Of course the actions of one can be devastating on thousands, that's why we have systems in place and appoint authorities to ensure that they do everything in their power to ensure that the actions of a minority DON'T result in that devastation.

Do you also blame the deaths of all those in the 9/11 or 7/7 attacks on a minority of people who may have posted anti-Islamic sentiments on message boards potentially read by terrorists?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

It's like the Bradford fire. Technically whoever threw that 1 cigarette down that started the fire was to blame but do you blame him for the tragedy?

Yes, of course I do. He shouldn't have been so careless.

It was a stand in which you were allowed to smoke, and where there was no provision put putting cigarette ends anywhere but on the floor, as people had done in that stand for decades before.


As it happens I don't hold the police directly responsible for the Hillsborough disaster. They had a poor crowd management plan as their thinking was based on stopping crowd trouble as the priority.

What I do hold them responsible for was not only the determination to cover up their actions and smear the victims, but mainly their appalling response to the unfolding tragedy. When people were dying, all they cared about was the potential for crowd trouble from a pitch invasion. At the very time they should have been responding to a major disaster, their reaction was to form a barrier between the Liverpool fans and the Forest fans at the other end.

[Wimb]

The biggest crime of Hillsborough was the fact that so many different authorities could have prevented the tragedy but didn't.

The Police, The FA and Sheffield Wednesday all could have done more to avert it from happening but none took the steps needed.

[PieEater]

Hillsborough was unsafe. Strangely the only organisation who refused to waive previllage on documents submitted to the enquiry was Royal Sun Alliance. The insurers of SWFC.

The police changed the oic a matter of weeks in advance, to an inexperienced officer who clearly panicked.

The ethos was about crowd control- not crowd safety. It would have made more sense to ask for kick off to be delayed for 1/2 hour than to open gates- they didn't even have Sky to answer to.

The government of the day were not in any position to be critical of SYP. They had done the miners strike- and were fundamental in implimenting government policy of breaking unions- and Liverpool, lets face it, the face of the militant was in Liverpool.

The fans were not political- that day. They were me and you. They wanted to watch their team do well. Half the people who died were under 21. Kids. Younger than most who post on here. Half of them could, perhaps, have been saved.

I am sure that some of those involved that day had been drinking. Hands up who ever went to a game without a couple of drinks? Some maybe didn't have tickets- touts were commonplace in the 80's- one reason it is now illegal- none of them deserved to die.

The OIC lost control, froze, made bad decisions, retired on full pension at 46. Football was not fashionable or rich, fans were "hooligans" and trouble...easy targets for blame.
When is it ever acceptable for statements to be changed?


Children never came home from a football match.

Spot on. The statements that got amended mostly said, where were all the policemen outside the gate? They usually formed a cordon, but the clueless OIC make zero attempts at crowd control.

He retired at 46 on a fat pension, the purveyor of lies to the press got a knighthood, the MP involved got a gong too, the Policemen who witnessed it got £2m compensation and the victims got.... a half arsed apology 23 years too late.

[dizzynewheights]

Yes - but if I was getting on a packed tube and pushed/shoved someone to get on and they were injured, it's a consequence of my action. I didn't INTEND to injure the person but I did - and have to take some responsibility. Must be the police's fault and London Underground as they have a duty of care to all their passengers.

In that case i assume you (and Ideal) hold Juve fans responsible for Heysel, seeing it was the Juve fans trampling/crushing each other that caused the wall to collapse etc

[Silver Fox]

Kes is really flailing on this one isn't he?

I'm all for having a go at Thatcher and McKenzie but that seems a bit harsh on our Brendo

[No Fixed Abode]

Yes - but if I was getting on a packed tube and pushed/shoved someone to get on and they were injured, it's a consequence of my action. I didn't INTEND to injure the person but I did - and have to take some responsibility. Must be the police's fault and London Underground as they have a duty of care to all their passengers.

In that case i assume you (and Ideal) hold Juve fans responsible for Heysel, seeing it was the Juve fans trampling/crushing each other that caused the wall to collapse etc

Poor attempt at a comeback. Of course it was Liverpool fans fault at Heysel. The stormed that wall which crushed the Juve fans.

[No Fixed Abode]

Kes is really flailing on this one isn't he?


I'm all for having a go at Thatcher and McKenzie but that seems a bit harsh on our Brendo

Not at all - Sir Norman Bettison of West Yorks Police has come out and said exactly the same thing - (Some)Liverpool fans didn't help matters that day. He's not afraid to say it in case he upsets the people of Liverpool.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... st-go.html

[dizzynewheights]

The stormed that wall which crushed the Juve fans.

No they didn't. They stormed the Juve fans - who should have realised that by running away they'd cause a crush with the fans behind them - which is what caused the wall to come down.

Juve fans decided to put their own people at risk rather than taking a few digs from a some pissed up, fat northerners. Their fault entirely, no

[Platypuss]

Kes is really flailing on this one isn't he?


I'm all for having a go at Thatcher and McKenzie but that seems a bit harsh on our Brendo

Not at all - Sir Norman Bettison of West Yorks Police has come out and said exactly the same thing - (Some)Liverpool fans didn't help matters that day. He's not afraid to say it in case he upsets the people of Liverpool.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... st-go.html

Surely not the same Norman Bettison who was employed by South Yorkshire Police in the post Hillsborough cover-up?

I'm sure his views will be impartial.

[No Fixed Abode]

The stormed that wall which crushed the Juve fans.

No they didn't. They stormed the Juve fans - who should have realised that by running away they'd cause a crush with the fans behind them - which is what caused the wall to come down.

Juve fans decided to put their own people at risk rather than taking a few digs from a some pissed up, fat northerners. Their fault entirely, no

Oh dear.

[No Fixed Abode]

Kes is really flailing on this one isn't he?


I'm all for having a go at Thatcher and McKenzie but that seems a bit harsh on our Brendo

Not at all - Sir Norman Bettison of West Yorks Police has come out and said exactly the same thing - (Some)Liverpool fans didn't help matters that day. He's not afraid to say it in case he upsets the people of Liverpool.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... st-go.html

Surely not the same Norman Bettison who was employed by South Yorkshire Police in the post Hillsborough cover-up?

I'm sure his views will be impartial.

The one that didn't change any statements and has nothing to hide - yes.

[dizzynewheights]

The stormed that wall which crushed the Juve fans.

No they didn't. They stormed the Juve fans - who should have realised that by running away they'd cause a crush with the fans behind them - which is what caused the wall to come down.

Juve fans decided to put their own people at risk rather than taking a few digs from a some pissed up, fat northerners. Their fault entirely, no

Oh dear.

poor comeback m8

[Alexander Litvinenko]

What he actually said was

"Fans’ behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.

“But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick-off approached. I held those views then, I hold them now.

“I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known about the Hillsborough tragedy because I have absolutely nothing to hide.”

Which is quite different than what is being suggested.

Fans made it harder to police the event - surely that's true of every, single match ever held anywhere?

But that behaviour didn’t cause the disaster - just how clearer can that be?

The laughable bit in Kes's increasingly desperate and fatuous responses is the persistent attempt to suggest that the behaviour of supporters at this match was in any way different to the way that any set of supporters, from any club, would have behaved at the same circumstances at the same or an equivalent match - or that they way they behaved was in any way different to the "norms" for football at that time.

[PieEater]

Being crushed in a pen is not nice but back then it was a regular occurrence at a lot of grounds. You can't do anything, if you are lucky you'd of raised your arms in front of you before it got too bad as some sort of protection. The descriptions of it being like being slowly squeezed in a vice are spot on. It's like piling people on top of each other vertically until eventually the one at the bottom of the pile is crushed.

[paultheroyal]

Being crushed in a pen is not nice but back then it was a regular occurrence at a lot of grounds. You can't do anything, if you are lucky you'd of raised your arms in front of you before it got too bad as some sort of protection. The descriptions of it being like being slowly squeezed in a vice are spot on. It's like piling people on top of each other vertically until eventually the one at the bottom of the pile is crushed.

Horrible experience.

Had that in the Liverpool vs Wimbledon cup final. Liverpool and Wimbledon were good as sharing the area behind the goal. Outside queing to get in it was a steady vice like grip as we were all very slowly being ushered towards the turnstile. If you fell over you would be in trouble.