Guthrie told to stay away...

[windermere_royal]

I'd be interested to also see Ledge, Gorkss & McAnuff.

24 passes suggests to me what we all already know. We just bypass midfield too much.

Can't be bothered to post all the pictures up, but Ledge had 38/51 passes, Gorkss 11/24 (nearly every pass into the opposition half failed ). McAnuff had 14/21 passes.

I wish I was surprised by Kaspars "hoof" Gorkss.

Love to see Berbatov`s stats,

[RedRum]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

[Hoop Blah]

We might be trying to pass it more but we just don't have the players really capable or comfortable enough doing it to make it work.

Rodgers showed that trying to adjust the way a team plays with players put together to do something else isn't easy. I think Guthrie is a bit of a victim of us trying to do a little bit of that but only doing it half heartedly.

I disagree with this, we're limited in the number of players we have who can move and pass a ball well, but I think with Shorey, McAnuff, Guthrie, Roberts, ALF and maybe Pog, Ledge and Kebe we have the beginnings of a side that can do it.

I probably should've added "at this level" to my capabel and comfortable quote.

Legiertwood had a spell in the Championship where he was half a yard quicker than the opposition (in his head) and he would win the ball with ease before passing it reasonably simply. He then got into the Karacan habit of just helping the ball on into the channels. He can't do the former in the Premier League because he isn't quicker mentally or physically and isn't stronger than the opposition in this league.

Kebe will never be a player capable of playing in a proper passing team. His game just doesn't suit it and Le Fondre just hasn't been able to get hold of the ball and impose himself on a game in this division to prove he can do anything other than score tap ins (he's had half chances and opportunities and fluffed them all from what I can recall).

Shorey, McAnuff and Guthrie are probably up to it, but you can't keep the ball between three or four players.

[windermere_royal]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

I`m so looking forward to the city/united games

[Ian Royal]

Do you think we can find a way of somehow merging Ledge and Karacan into one super player? Ledge's composure and passing, Karacan's atheleticism..... Hold on, it's Sidwell isn't it.

[RoyalBlue]

Do you think we can find a way of somehow merging Ledge and Karacan into one super player? Ledge's composure and passing, Karacan's atheleticism..... Hold on, it's Sidwell isn't it.

There you go again! A mirror of my thoughts!

[windermere_royal]

Do you think we can find a way of somehow merging Ledge and Karacan into one super player? Ledge's composure and passing, Karacan's atheleticism..... Hold on, it's Sidwell isn't it.

Not a regular at Fulham, we really must go for him in the window, but if he wants to stay in the PL not sure he would come. loan maybe.

[Snowball]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

These comparisons are meaningless.

Berbatov is a fabulous player and a great striker, but when he was playing midfield
he was making little tap-passes and moving, getting it back, little pass etc.

I don't think, for the whole 90 minutes he tried a pass of more than ten metres.

Ditto when sides walk the ball up, tapping it to and fro among the defenders. That rockets
up the possession-stats, just like Swansea add 5-10% before getting into seriously dangerous territory.

It's not passes as much as IMPORTANT passes, passes that put players through
on goal or split a defence for another pass to put a third player in on goal.

In the end what matters is the shots on target from less than 18 yards that really matter.

If you ping a ball into the channels for a winger or quick striker to chase
and it's not TO him (but he gets there first) is that a completed pass or not?

The very nature of the through-ball over 20+ yards or a long-ball for a winger
to break on to means they will come off less often but cause more trouble
when they come right.

For all their possession and so-called "passing it around us" how many times did they truly breach our defence?

One cracking shot of genius from 20 yards , due to a moment of laziness by our defensive midfield, one
very clever drop-off by Berbatov (Gorks conned) and a fabulous finish, and the third goal a clever one
(a near-repeat repeat of the previous week for Fulham) from a dead-ball.

And there was one almost point blank header from an old-fashioned cross. You could hardly say McCarthy
had to perform heroics like he did at Swansea.

IOW Fulham's fancy-pants possession WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH to beat a side that is favourite for the drop
and that's side "crude play" was good enough to score three and could have had goal 4 and goal 5 in that last five minutes.

The difference yesterday was FINISHING. Fulham got two goals, great finishes from great players plus a training-ground special.

For me the difference this season has been the opposition's ability to score goals that Championship teams missed

[melonhead]

We might be trying to pass it more but we just don't have the players really capable or comfortable enough doing it to make it work.

Rodgers showed that trying to adjust the way a team plays with players put together to do something else isn't easy. I think Guthrie is a bit of a victim of us trying to do a little bit of that but only doing it half heartedly.

not the way he tried to do it, no

[melonhead]

Kebe will never be a player capable of playing in a proper passing team. His game just doesn't suit it

Bah!

[bassavage]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

I`m so looking forward to the city/united games

But what was the main stat, a certain how many times did the ball hit the back of the net? We did it 3 times, they did it 3 times. So for all the greater number of passes their midfielders or whatever made, the main stat, and the only stat that actually matters, we were level.

We don't need a major change in the style of our play. What we need to sort out is basic defensive mistakes that are costing us in terms of conceding goals.

[Simon's Church]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

These comparisons are meaningless.

Berbatov is a fabulous player and a great striker, but when he was playing midfield
he was making little tap-passes and moving, getting it back, little pass etc.

Yep, it's almost as if ALL stats are meaningless without some kind of context or further analysis

[RedRum]

Just out of interest - coul someone with access to that Opta stat jobbie let us know what Berbatovs pass completion rate was? I reckon it was double the nearest one of ours...?

Berbatov had 63/71 completed passes. Our best was Ledge with 38/51... Fulham's best was Diarra with 83/95 pass completion

These comparisons are meaningless.

Berbatov is a fabulous player and a great striker, but when he was playing midfield
he was making little tap-passes and moving, getting it back, little pass etc.

I don't think, for the whole 90 minutes he tried a pass of more than ten metres.

Ditto when sides walk the ball up, tapping it to and fro among the defenders. That rockets
up the possession-stats, just like Swansea add 5-10% before getting into seriously dangerous territory.

It's not passes as much as IMPORTANT passes, passes that put players through
on goal or split a defence for another pass to put a third player in on goal.

In the end what matters is the shots on target from less than 18 yards that really matter.

If you ping a ball into the channels for a winger or quick striker to chase
and it's not TO him (but he gets there first) is that a completed pass or not?

The very nature of the through-ball over 20+ yards or a long-ball for a winger
to break on to means they will come off less often but cause more trouble
when they come right.

For all their possession and so-called "passing it around us" how many times did they truly breach our defence?

One cracking shot of genius from 20 yards , due to a moment of laziness by our defensive midfield, one
very clever drop-off by Berbatov (Gorks conned) and a fabulous finish, and the third goal a clever one
(a near-repeat repeat of the previous week for Fulham) from a dead-ball.

And there was one almost point blank header from an old-fashioned cross. You could hardly say McCarthy
had to perform heroics like he did at Swansea.

IOW Fulham's fancy-pants possession WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH to beat a side that is favourite for the drop
and that's side "crude play" was good enough to score three and could have had goal 4 and goal 5 in that last five minutes.

The difference yesterday was FINISHING. Fulham got two goals, great finishes from great players plus a training-ground special.

For me the difference this season has been the opposition's ability to score goals that Championship teams missed

I agree with you Snowball, I was just giving info that people requested... my whole point in trying to use passes was to compare Guthrie with the rest of our midfield, and referring to my previous post it seems that Guthrie probably is our best passer, although Ledge has had the most passes in the majority of our matches so far, while having a lower completion rate.

Don't really think this thread should descend into a 'we never pass and play sh*t football'

[Snowball]

Isn't there some Opta stat for "killer pass" even if it's not called that?

[RedRum]

Isn't there some Opta stat for "killer pass" even if it's not called that?

Not really, but I guess it's hard to decide what constitutes a 'killer pass'. There's 'chances created', or you could just look at the passes into the box.

[facaldaqui]

For me the difference this season has been the opposition's ability to score goals that Championship teams missed

I agree. The margins are very tight. It will be interesting to see what happens when we at last play some of the less effective teams in the division--perhaps the brilliant-goal-count will go down.

[Hoop Blah]

Isn't there some Opta stat for "killer pass" even if it's not called that?

The club had some measurement for it years ago as I remember Murty defending Harper saying that he always topped the 'key pass' stats.

How they collect that I'm not sure but it was probably through their team of video analysts.

[andrew1957]

I am astounded that anyone here would support Guthrie over Brian in this spat.

In pre season Guthrie looked superb but he has been very hot and cold so far in PL games that he has played. Bluntly Tabb offers more than him at the moment (and I astounded to find myself saying that) so it is no surprise that Tabb was in ahead of Guthrie on Saturday. I am sure Guthrie would have been on the bench if he had not thrown his toys out of the pram.

So yes we do have a big problem as we are very short in numbers at CM but hopefully this will be a wake up call to Guthrie and he will come back to prove he is worthy of a starting place. If not I would not be surprised if his contract is cancelled "by mutual agreement" in January and we look elsewhere. Depends if he really believes he is good enough to get more playing time elsewhere at another PL club.

Dellor hit the nail on the head for me in his comments before the match on Saturday when he said that the problem was Guthrie did not look like a Reading type player and would probably fit better into Chelsea’s style of play (not that he is good enough) rather than Reading’s style of play.

The issue is can he adapt and does he want to. If not he has no future at RFC.

[Snowball]

Isn't there some Opta stat for "killer pass" even if it's not called that?

Not really, but I guess it's hard to decide what constitutes a 'killer pass'. There's 'chances created', or you could just look at the passes into the box.

I remember now. It's called "key pass". Could be a direct assist or what I call half-assist

[cmonurz]

I don't think the Fulham passing stats should be ignored. What's important about Berbatov's 60-odd successful passes? Two things, a) Fulham kept possession, and b) movement with and off the ball.