Jason Roberts...Do you sometimes find him annoying?!

[melonhead]

Surely the low number of black managers is because clubs so rarely give someone without any experience a chance, every vacancy that comes up it's the same names banded around and so because up until now have been few black managers it'll take a long time for the percentages to seem right. It's not about racism it's about chairmen favouring proven competency over potential.

that cant be the case when shearer, and manyh of ther failed managers will be offered jobs this season at some point
and managers seem to get jobs no matter how often they prove they are shit


mark hughes for instance-what the oxf*rd has he ever done?

[ZacNaloen]

Did a very good job at blackburn, it all fell apart for him at Man City and doesn't seem to have recovered.

[melonhead]

meh

[Hoop Blah]

mark hughes for instance-what the oxf*rd has he ever done?

Turned Wales from a (rightly) embarassing shambles of a side into a much better team that came close to qualifying for a tournament! That's no mean feat.

Did a pretty good job at Blackburn, and in difficult circumstances, not too bad a job at City. He gets jobs because of who he is and the potential he showed in those two jobs. Every manager is allowed a failure or two on their record before they're written off (see Pardew for good evidence of that). I think he even got Fulham up to a decent finish in the league before walking away.

Edit: Hughes took Fulham to 8th in 10-11. The season before they were 12th, the season after 9th. This season Jol currently has them 8th. I reckon he did a pretty good job at Fulham.

[melonhead]

Surely the low number of black managers is because clubs so rarely give someone without any experience a chance, every vacancy that comes up it's the same names banded around and so because up until now have been few black managers it'll take a long time for the percentages to seem right. It's not about racism it's about chairmen favouring proven competency over potential.

defo possible.
but then the stats would be the same for new white badge bearing coaches

dunno if they are or not

[melonhead]

a) They aren’t passing their coaching badges
b) They aren’t getting selected for interview
c) They aren’t getting the job

percentages required for these please

then we can move on!

i cant find em anywhere
thopugh ive not looked very hard!

This is a list of Pro Licence graduates 02-09 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_managers_and_coaches_who_have_qualified_for_the_UEFA_Pro_Licence#England). Technically you have to have this if you want to manage in the Premier League.

Of the c. 150 names on that list I can only spot a handful of BME licence holders (Noel Blake, Paul Davis, Keith Alexander, Iffy Onoura, Leroy Rosenoir and our very own Nas Bashir). I think Chris Hughton, Micheal Johnson and Keith Curle are also Pro Licence holders.

From my knowledge they've all got or had jobs in football.

Curle mentioned the other day that he was the only black person, out of 26, on his course.

EDIT: Just read on the BBC that of the 192 UEFA Pro Licence holders in England, 14 are black. I've not read a reference to the percentage of those licence holders who hold jobs or, specifically, league management jobs though. Looking down that list I wouldn't say it's great. There are now 4 black league managers, 3 of which have the licence (the other being Edgar Davids) so thats 21% of black Pro Licence holders who are managing English league clubs.

thats fine at the top level, but theyre all pro players, and so have had a bit of a leg up
need to see the stats at every level

[melonhead]

mark hughes for instance-what the oxf*rd has he ever done?

Turned Wales from a (rightly) embarassing shambles of a side into a much better team that came close to qualifying for a tournament! That's no mean feat.

Did a pretty good job at Blackburn, and in difficult circumstances, not too bad a job at City. He gets jobs because of who he is and the potential he showed in those two jobs. Every manager is allowed a failure or two on their record before they're written off (see Pardew for good evidence of that). I think he even got Fulham up to a decent finish in the league before walking away.

Edit: Hughes took Fulham to 8th in 10-11. The season before they were 12th, the season after 9th. This season Jol currently has them 8th. I reckon he did a pretty good job at Fulham.

so he turned ales froma shambles, into slightly less of a shambles who still failed to qualify for a tournament
did ok at blackburn, ok at fulham

does maintaining sides at roughly the level theyre at now constitute real success that deserves premiere league jobs be offered to him?
but imo cant build a side for shit


i have developed a slight hughes hatred recently though, so im a bit biased.

[Hoop Blah]

In terms of getting through the supposed glass ceiling and into management jobs it's only really the top level qualifications that matter isn't it?

Obviously a lot of managers might start out as coaches and then impress enough to move up, but if you want black managers in the top flight then they have to, theoretically, have the Pro Licence, but it seems like more and more professional level coaches will be taking the Pro Licence and need to have it to get the better coaching jobs.

Another stat I've seen is that the PFA say 18% of their course attendees are black. Their courses cover the full Level 1 to Pro Licence progression and are open to memembers of the PFA only. I've not seen any mention of employement rates though.

[melonhead]

In terms of getting through the supposed glass ceiling and into management jobs it's only really the top level qualifications that matter isn't it?

Obviously a lot of managers might start out as coaches and then impress enough to move up, but if you want black managers in the top flight then they have to, theoretically, have the Pro Licence, but it seems like more and more professional level coaches will be taking the Pro Licence and need to have it to get the better coaching jobs.

Another stat I've seen is that the PFA say 18% of their course attendees are black. Their courses cover the full Level 1 to Pro Licence progression and are open to memembers of the PFA only. I've not seen any mention of employement rates though.

ive never talked exclusivey about top level jobs, in fact ive explicitly talked about coaching and management roles at all levels of footbal

[Hoop Blah]

All levels? You mean all the way down to park football?

[melonhead]

at all levels for which you require the coaching badges about which i was talking. yes.

kids football, and park football, feeds into non league football, into lower league football, into top level football

so the racism doesnt have to be at the top level in order to stop the flow of black coaches getting jobs at that level.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

As much as anything, I think a lot of this is down to "racial coding", which is a specific form of institutional racism :

http://www.theroot.com/views/black-quarterbacks

This relates to American Football, but the same mindset that says "blacks aren't intelligent enough to be managers" here replicates as ""blacks aren't intelligent enough to play quarterback" there.

But intelligence is a touchy subject when race is involved. The notion that black players lacked the ability to read and comprehend defensive schemes is the main reason so few of them played quarterback in the NFL prior to Doug Williams, who led the Redskins to the Super Bowl in 1988.

Black college quarterbacks were routinely converted to other positions in the NFL, without even getting an opportunity to play under center. A black college quarterback wasn't taken No. 1 in the NFL draft until the Atlanta Falcons selected Michael Vick in 2001. But in the aftermath of McNabb's benching, noted author and Washington Post sports columnist John Feinstein accused Shanahan of "racial coding."

Unfortunately, we're at the point where it's nearly impossible to suggest that a black quarterback is slow on the uptake, even though the law of averages suggests that some of them are duller than others. The problem is determining how much of that assessment is colored -- excuse the pun -- by racial stereotypes and how much racial bias might hinder a prospect.

http://www.feinsteinonthebrink.com/index.php?id=2905099426450006162

[Hoop Blah]

Brendy, if you're talking 'jobs' then kids football and a fair bit of semi-pro non-league is totally irrelevant because it doesn't feed up the pyramid at all.

Pretty much the only people that get prefessional and semi-professional jobs are those who start at that level so I'm really not sure what information you're actually asking for.

The evidence that I've collected show that there are very few black coaches/managers who have made the effort to get the top qualifications. Of those that have the majority seem to be well involved in the game and have got decent jobs though it. Of the 14 black Pro Licence holders 3 are managers in professional football. From what I've read some of the others are Iffy Onoura and Paul Davis (both with the PFA coaching the coaches and Onoura got his chance as football league manager at Swindon), Chris Kiwomya (with Keith Curle at Notts County as their version of Chris Cummins at RFC), Noel Blake (manager of England U19s after working for Stoke's Academy and a stint as Exeter City), Andy Preece (Not sure he's got the full licence but apparently attended the Diploma course and has been a [failed?] football league manager but is still working in non-league), Terry Connor (obviously had a good job at Wolves before being lumbered with getting them relegated post-McCarthy), Leroy Rosenoir (got jobs and his chance).

From those individuals I can't really see a problem. Most of them seem to have got jobs and are making careers.

[DelBoyRodders]

The Society of Black Lawyers are demanding a 20% quota.
Unbelievable!!

[Hoop Blah]

As much as anything, I think a lot of this is down to "racial coding", which is a specific form of institutional racism :

This may be the case, as anyone who heard Keith Curle say last week that, black players don't go into coaching "...because they're the best players, and it comes naturally to them..." before going on to say the likes of Victor Moses probably don't know the rules let alone have the desire to go back and learn about how to coach and the technicalities of putting a team together, would possibly testify.

Is that attitude of not wanting to go back into education to learn coaching more a 'black' trait than a white one? I wouldn't have though so but if there are 30% of footballers who are black and only 18% of PFA coaching courses are black players perhaps it's true?

[No Fixed Abode]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

[DelBoyRodders]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

But if you listen to Roberts, Holt, Ferdinand, Collymore and that awful prick Peter Herbert, there is only one crime in the world - RACISM - or name calling to normal people!
Nothing else seems to matter or comes close.

[sandman]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

But if you listen to Roberts, Holt, Ferdinand, Collymore and that awful prick Peter Herbert, there is only one crime in the world - RACISM - or name calling to normal people!
Nothing else seems to matter or comes close.

So you want to be free to be racist?

[DelBoyRodders]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

But if you listen to Roberts, Holt, Ferdinand, Collymore and that awful prick Peter Herbert, there is only one crime in the world - RACISM - or name calling to normal people!
Nothing else seems to matter or comes close.

So you want to be free to be racist?

Of course racism should be punished - real racism that is - not some of the shite we've had to read about in past 12 months.
But this racism seems to be the only crime in the world to the likes of the people I've mentioned.
Why for example isn't the likes of Oliver Holt reporting/ investigating the Chelsea fans throwing missles on the pitch during the Man Utd game and physically injuring one of their own stewards?
He had to go to hospital FFS, and it has hardly been mentioned since.
Those football-related incidents to me are far more serious than name calling.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

If you're making a serious point (which I know damn well you're not) - I'd say that the biggest problem today is homophobia, which is not only widespread but not even noticed as a problem by many..

Homophobia today is pretty much where racism was in the 80s.