Jason Roberts...Do you sometimes find him annoying?!

[SPARTA]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

If you're making a serious point (which I know damn well you're not) - I'd say that the biggest problem today is homophobia, which is not only widespread but not even noticed as a problem by many..

Homophobia today is pretty much where racism was in the 80s.

Because the players wont come out in the first instance. If they did then people/clubs would focus on it, but when a player doesn't want the attention drawn to him, he'll ignore the abuse.

[melonhead]

Brendy, if you're talking 'jobs' then kids football and a fair bit of semi-pro non-league is totally irrelevant because it doesn't feed up the pyramid at all.

Pretty much the only people that get prefessional and semi-professional jobs are those who start at that level so I'm really not sure what information you're actually asking for.

The evidence that I've collected show that there are very few black coaches/managers who have made the effort to get the top qualifications. Of those that have the majority seem to be well involved in the game and have got decent jobs though it. Of the 14 black Pro Licence holders 3 are managers in professional football. From what I've read some of the others are Iffy Onoura and Paul Davis (both with the PFA coaching the coaches and Onoura got his chance as football league manager at Swindon), Chris Kiwomya (with Keith Curle at Notts County as their version of Chris Cummins at RFC), Noel Blake (manager of England U19s after working for Stoke's Academy and a stint as Exeter City), Andy Preece (Not sure he's got the full licence but apparently attended the Diploma course and has been a [failed?] football league manager but is still working in non-league), Terry Connor (obviously had a good job at Wolves before being lumbered with getting them relegated post-McCarthy), Leroy Rosenoir (got jobs and his chance).

From those individuals I can't preally see a problem. Most of them seem to have got jobs and are making careers.

dunno why your getting all upity

just asking the questions


where-ever you set the cut off- lower levels
feed into the toplevels, even if not all the way from kids/park footy

there is a disconnect, somewhere. just wanna know why/where it is

[melonhead]

As much as anything, I think a lot of this is down to "racial coding", which is a specific form of institutional racism :

This may be the case, as anyone who heard Keith Curle say last week that, black players don't go into coaching "...because they're the best players, and it comes naturally to them..." before going on to say the likes of Victor Moses probably don't know the rules let alone have the desire to go back and learn about how to coach and the technicalities of putting a team together, would possibly testify.

Is that attitude of not wanting to go back into education to learn coaching more a 'black' trait than a white one? I wouldn't have though so but if there are 30% of footballers who are black and only 18% of PFA coaching courses are black players perhaps it's true?

could easily be that they are put off at the lack of opportunitys given, as being cos they are lazy tbf ron

[melonhead]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

But if you listen to Roberts, Holt, Ferdinand, Collymore and that awful prick Peter Herbert, there is only one crime in the world - RACISM - or name calling to normal people!
Nothing else seems to matter or comes close.

black people arent normal?


as discussed numerous times already on this thread- its worse than name calling due to the context and history

[MouldyRoyal]

IMO - sexism in football needs addressing more than racism.

The amount of times I've heard 'Get your tits out for the lads' at football matches I've lost count. And no, that song wasn't aimed at Frank Lampard.

If you're making a serious point (which I know damn well you're not) - I'd say that the biggest problem today is homophobia, which is not only widespread but not even noticed as a problem by many..

Homophobia today is pretty much where racism was in the 80s.

Because the players wont come out in the first instance. If they did then people/clubs would focus on it, but when a player doesn't want the attention drawn to him, he'll ignore the abuse.

So it's the gay players' fault?

[Hoop Blah]

Brendy, if you're talking 'jobs' then kids football and a fair bit of semi-pro non-league is totally irrelevant because it doesn't feed up the pyramid at all.

Pretty much the only people that get prefessional and semi-professional jobs are those who start at that level so I'm really not sure what information you're actually asking for.

The evidence that I've collected show that there are very few black coaches/managers who have made the effort to get the top qualifications. Of those that have the majority seem to be well involved in the game and have got decent jobs though it. Of the 14 black Pro Licence holders 3 are managers in professional football. From what I've read some of the others are Iffy Onoura and Paul Davis (both with the PFA coaching the coaches and Onoura got his chance as football league manager at Swindon), Chris Kiwomya (with Keith Curle at Notts County as their version of Chris Cummins at RFC), Noel Blake (manager of England U19s after working for Stoke's Academy and a stint as Exeter City), Andy Preece (Not sure he's got the full licence but apparently attended the Diploma course and has been a [failed?] football league manager but is still working in non-league), Terry Connor (obviously had a good job at Wolves before being lumbered with getting them relegated post-McCarthy), Leroy Rosenoir (got jobs and his chance).

From those individuals I can't preally see a problem. Most of them seem to have got jobs and are making careers.

dunno why your getting all upity

just asking the questions


where-ever you set the cut off- lower levels
feed into the toplevels, even if not all the way from kids/park footy

there is a disconnect, somewhere. just wanna know why/where it is

I'm not getting upity! I'm just trying to discuss where the issues are as I'm really not sure they actually exist and I'm interested in whether they do or not. You seem adamant that they do exist but seemingly keep changing where you think they are.

There aren't that many black managers in the football league, totally accept that as fact. I'm not sure they're actually under-represented though, even if 30% of players are black but only 2/3% of managers. I agree the ratio's are different, but I'm unconvinced that the over representation of black players means that there is under representation in management.

There is a lot of talk of lack of opportunity, but my cursory look at those black Pro Licence holders seems to me that they're all doing pretty well in the game and have had good opportunities relative to their white colleagues.

Perhaps there is institutional racism in the game, but I'm getting the feeling that it's more a problem with the perception of the BME population rather than a reality across the industry itself.

[melonhead]

soz, just like the word uppity

[No Fixed Abode]

I was thinking about Jason Roberts and his rants of racism.

I recall a large number of black people at our secondary school were terrible bullies. If one of the black entourage at our school had a problem with you, then the whole lot did. If this is still true at schools today, I don't think we'll ever totally get rid of racism. I like many black people but often my judgement is clouded by the vile black gang of 'brothers, cousins etc at our school and I'm sure this is the same in other parts of the Country. One former school pupil has recently been put down for stabbing someone at Face Bar, and a few others have had their run ins with the law which is of no surprise to me. However, when black gangs act like this, mud sticks. So maybe Jason Roberts should visit some schools and spread his message there. I'm pretty sure this is the route of the problem and he should stop wasting his time saying football is racist.

[melonhead]

I was thinking about Jason Roberts and his rants of racism.

I recall a large number of black people at our secondary school were terrible bullies. If one of the black entourage at our school had a problem with you, then the whole lot did. If this is still true at schools today, I don't think we'll ever totally get rid of racism. I like many black people but often my judgement is clouded by the vile black gang of 'brothers, cousins etc at our school and I'm sure this is the same in other parts of the Country. One former school pupil has recently been put down for stabbing someone at Face Bar, and a few others have had their run ins with the law which is of no surprise to me. However, when black gangs act like this, mud sticks. So maybe Jason Roberts should visit some schools and spread his message there. I'm pretty sure this is the route of the problem and he should stop wasting his time saying football is racist.

weird 100% of the bullies at my school were white

im pretty sure there has been no antiwhite backlash as a result of this in my area

[No Fixed Abode]

I was thinking about Jason Roberts and his rants of racism.

I recall a large number of black people at our secondary school were terrible bullies. If one of the black entourage at our school had a problem with you, then the whole lot did. If this is still true at schools today, I don't think we'll ever totally get rid of racism. I like many black people but often my judgement is clouded by the vile black gang of 'brothers, cousins etc at our school and I'm sure this is the same in other parts of the Country. One former school pupil has recently been put down for stabbing someone at Face Bar, and a few others have had their run ins with the law which is of no surprise to me. However, when black gangs act like this, mud sticks. So maybe Jason Roberts should visit some schools and spread his message there. I'm pretty sure this is the route of the problem and he should stop wasting his time saying football is racist.

weird 100% of the bullies at my school were white

im pretty sure there has been no antiwhite backlash as a result of this in my area

Well, it depends on the area you went to school. Our school had a quite a few black pupils from the OXford Road area. There were one or two white bullies at our school, but the majority of bullies were that of black origin.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

At my school the majority of bullies tended to be from less privileged families. I'm sure the same applies everywhere.

[No Fixed Abode]

At my school the majority of bullies tended to be from less privileged families. I'm sure the same applies everywhere.

At my school the majority of bullies were black - I'm sure the same applies everywhere.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

At my school the majority of bullies tended to be from less privileged families. I'm sure the same applies everywhere.

At my school the majority of bullies were black - I'm sure the same applies everywhere.

So you said.

Then someone contradicted it and you ignored that.

Then someone made a more rational post which contradicted you and your response was to repeat your initial post.

[Hoop Blah]

To be fair, if you see the bad press 'chavs' get then there is plenty of white backlash and prejudice against those types who Dirk is alluding to.

For once, I think it's a bit churlish to dismiss Kes' fishing so freely as I'm 100% sure that the behaviour of the characters he's referring to (and their wider group) really do a lot of damage to the cause of removing racism from society.

Anyone who's played against Dee Road or Unity will know exactly what Kes is on about here. They do themselves a lot of harm with their behaviour.

[facaldaqui]

I was thinking about Jason Roberts and his rants of racism.

I recall a large number of black people at our secondary school were terrible bullies. If one of the black entourage at our school had a problem with you, then the whole lot did. If this is still true at schools today, I don't think we'll ever totally get rid of racism. I like many black people but often my judgement is clouded by the vile black gang of 'brothers, cousins etc at our school and I'm sure this is the same in other parts of the Country. One former school pupil has recently been put down for stabbing someone at Face Bar, and a few others have had their run ins with the law which is of no surprise to me. However, when black gangs act like this, mud sticks. So maybe Jason Roberts should visit some schools and spread his message there. I'm pretty sure this is the route of the problem and he should stop wasting his time saying football is racist.

I think that might lead to "fear" of black people, but, if we are smart, it shouldn't lead to racism, though racism often does grow out of fear. I have to admit that I get nervous when a large group of black guys is coming towards me; but I don't believe I am racist. We have to be cool enough to grasp that if minorities are proportionally more involved in violence and crime it stems from social circumstances. Although there were black gangs at your school, the bigger picture is that there were gangs of violent people at your school. It is unlikely that all the black kids at your school were violent or that all the white kids were not--in which case, it could not have been caused by racial differences.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

To be fair, if you see the bad press 'chavs' get then there is plenty of white backlash and prejudice against those types who Dirk is alluding to.

For once, I think it's a bit churlish to dismiss Kes' fishing so freely as I'm 100% sure that the behaviour of the characters he's referring to (and their wider group) really do a lot of damage to the cause of removing racism from society.

Anyone who's played against Dee Road or Unity will know exactly what Kes is on about here. They do themselves a lot of harm with their behaviour.

But the essential problem is that you can't generalise a whole racial or ethnic group based on the behaviour of an individual subset of them.

[Hoop Blah]

Agreed Dirk, but in the real world human nature is that you do associate certain behaviour with groups when you see those groups often display that behaviour.

That's why little old grannies fear a group of hoody wearing youths and why some people might thinking a group of swaggering black youths might be a danger too them.

That's not to excuse discrimination based on the way a person looks or the colour of your skin, but the behaviour of minorities will effect the perception of the majority. You'll know that only too well with your work with the FSF and STAR.

[Extended-Phenotype]

I was thinking about Jason Roberts and his rants of racism.

I recall a large number of black people at our secondary school were terrible bullies. If one of the black entourage at our school had a problem with you, then the whole lot did.

A bit like any gang, then.

when black gangs act like this, mud sticks.

and when white gangs act like this, with no obvious form of branding, mud doesn't.

I think your problem bud, is that when a crime is commited by a black dude, you go "oh look, black dude's are criminal". You don't seem to be keeping score how many crims are brown haired, Swedish, wearing a tracksuit or with moustache.

It's like in the papers. There is no mention of a persons race if he isn't black or asian.

People only seem to chalk it up if it's a dude they don't look like.

[MouldyRoyal]

There's a phrase for that, I think it's "positive reinforcement" or something.

It's the same reason that some people consider themselves less lucky at dice rolls than others, which is of course ludicrous, they just remember the losing rolls as that reinforces the opinion that they are unlucky.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Neat stuff.