The Fan Experience

[theoilmerchant]

Hi guys, Fulham fan here in peace. I'm currently writing a blog and have just made my first post on 'The Fan Experience' and was hoping you guys could give it a read and let me know what you think. Good luck for the rest of the season and hope all goes all well in the fight for survival. Also, if you would like to receive notifications of my new blog, just click the follow button on my page. I will be looking to post something new every 3-4 days.

http://theoilmerchant.wordpress.com/201 ... xperience/

[Royal Lady]

Quite interesting but although you say the tickets are a lot cheaper than here - the standing ticket is cheaper (and we don't have standing here so can't compare) but after that, outside of disabled/youth tickets, the starting price is £430 for a season ticket - so not that much different to many clubs here.

[theoilmerchant]

Yeah thats true, but you have to remember they are Borussia Dortmund and they do include 3 Champions League games. Also if you take into the account that the all-standing stand is virtually the size of nearly the whole of several stadiums in the Premiership which means a high proportion of the season tickets are standing ones. Also makes the case that if we introduced standing in England again, would it lead to cheaper prices?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Also makes the case that if we introduced standing in England again, would it lead to cheaper prices?

In that case it's written by an idiot.

We have standing below the 2nd tier, and standing there isn't cheap like it is in Germany. Why on earth do people believe that if you had terracing back in England you'd be able to get into premier league games at the Emirates or Old Trafford cheaper than you'd pay to stand at a Blue Square South match at Basingstoke and Dover?

What they do do in Germany is have a lot of price bands, with a big variety in seat prices. At many English grounds, the difference between the best and worst seats is about £5, if not less.

[theoilmerchant]

What do you mean by witten by an idiot? I wasn't stating that it would be the case, I was merely opening up debate as to whether it would be case

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

What do you mean by witten by an idiot? I wasn't stating that it would be the case, I was merely opening up debate as to whether it would be case

Maybe "idiot" was harsh, but it's something you get trotted out time and time again, as if people really believe terracing will mean paying £10 to get in again, even though it costs £10 to stand at Rymans League games.

There is absolutely zero chance of premier league clubs deciding £10 is a fair price for a standing place if it costs nearer £20 to stand at a league two game.

[theoilmerchant]

I wasn't stating that it would be the case, in fact the opposite. Im not saying introducing standing will reduce prices to such an extent but merely stating clubs should reduce prices, big difference. Plus the whole message is that we get it bad here and that the German fan is treated as a King.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I wasn't stating that it would be the case, in fact the opposite. Im not saying introducing standing will reduce prices to such an extent but merely stating clubs should reduce prices, big difference. Plus the whole message is that we get it bad here and that the German fan is treated as a King.

Because of the fundamental fact that German fans OWN their football clubs. Apart from the two old ex-works teams, all German clubs have the 50+1 ownership rules, which mean that 50% of the shares plus one have to be owned by the club's fans.

That changes the whole emphasis of the club - it belongs to the supporters and is there for them, and it can't be taken over (plus the rules on debt mean that it can't run up massive, unpayable debts. Quite different to England where clubs can be owned by rich individuals with no link to the club or its community, and can be bought and sold without any reference to its supporters, and the misdeeds of an owner can condemn it to financial oblivion.

In terms of financial regulation and ownership models the German model work and is brilliant - the English one is fatally flawed.

[theoilmerchant]

I wasn't stating that it would be the case, in fact the opposite. Im not saying introducing standing will reduce prices to such an extent but merely stating clubs should reduce prices, big difference. Plus the whole message is that we get it bad here and that the German fan is treated as a King.

Because of the fundamental fact that German fans OWN their football clubs. Apart from the two old ex-works teams, all German clubs have the 50+1 ownership rules, which mean that 50% of the shares plus one have to be owned by the club's fans.

That changes the whole emphasis of the club - it belongs to the supporters and is there for them, and it can't be taken over (plus the rules on debt mean that it can't run up massive, unpayable debts. Quite different to England where clubs can be owned by rich individuals with no link to the club or its community, and can be bought and sold without any reference to its supporters, and the misdeeds of an owner can condemn it to financial oblivion.

In terms of financial regulation and ownership models the German model work and is brilliant - the English one is fatally flawed.

Exactly, I completely agree it is something not only England should follow, but the whole footballing world. The way things are run in Germany is admirable. But the problem is, will it ever happen in England? It's hard to see that being the case

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Exactly, I completely agree it is something not only England should follow, but the whole footballing world. The way things are run in Germany is admirable. But the problem is, will it ever happen in England? It's hard to see that being the case

the difficulty is how you get there from where we are now. A lot will depend on the DCMS enquiry due to report soon - their first report came out with some good intentions, but the "joint response" of the football authorities (FA's, PL & FL but written almost exclusively by the Premier League) will almost kill football as we know it if accepted, as it give the PL more say over the game than the FA. The DCMS second report is awaited, and there'll be massive rections in the FA etc as a result, I'm sure.

But the short answer, I'm afriad, is "no". Football ought to be run fr the benefit of its key stakeholders, but I'm afraid in England these days it's owned and run by a few rich people for the benefit of a few rich people - and without government legislation I can't ever see that changing. And I can't see any government having the balls to take on the money and the dirty-tricks of teh Premier League and their media machine to impose that.

The only possible route to change is from the bottom up, through supporter ownership, but because of the sums involved that will be a long slow road - and all the time supporter-owned clubs will be at a massive disadvantage as they'll be managing the books properly while competing against sugar-daddies who can burden clubs with enormous debt.

[theoilmerchant]

Exactly, I completely agree it is something not only England should follow, but the whole footballing world. The way things are run in Germany is admirable. But the problem is, will it ever happen in England? It's hard to see that being the case

the difficulty is how you get there from where we are now. A lot will depend on the DCMS enquiry due to report soon - their first report came out with some good intentions, but the "joint response" of the football authorities (FA's, PL & FL but written almost exclusively by the Premier League) will almost kill football as we know it if accepted, as it give the PL more say over the game than the FA. The DCMS second report is awaited, and there'll be massive rections in the FA etc as a result, I'm sure.

But the short answer, I'm afriad, is "no". Football ought to be run fr the benefit of its key stakeholders, but I'm afraid in England these days it's owned and run by a few rich people for the benefit of a few rich people - and without government legislation I can't ever see that changing. And I can't see any government having the balls to take on the money and the dirty-tricks of teh Premier League and their media machine to impose that.

The only possible route to change is from the bottom up, through supporter ownership, but because of the sums involved that will be a long slow road - and all the time supporter-owned clubs will be at a massive disadvantage as they'll be managing the books properly while competing against sugar-daddies who can burden clubs with enormous debt.

Yeah its a sad situation if you look at the current and future predicament

[Jobbo no.11]

Great piece mate and agree with nearly everything! Would love to have a fan experience like the Germans. Had the privilege to stand on the huge terrace at bourissia dortmund and is one of the best footballing experiences i have ever had. Just everything that football should be about. Great view, AMAZING atmosphere, no danger, no idiotic stewards just brilliant.

[Long_Boi]

There can be that no doubt that of all the major leagues Germany has got it as close to perfect as it can be. In terms of the ownership, ticket prices & overall fan experience as you state. I went to watch Hertha Berlin in 2008 & I believe the ticket was about €16, which I bought on the day.

As someone already alluded to I'm not sure how the English game would transition to the German system. I feel that are too many obstructive factors.

The Premier League as a product is far more marketable than the Bundesliga, it has evolved from only appealing to the traditional foreign markets such as Ireland, Scandinavia & Australia. Now it is everywhere from Jakarta to Settle. So it is unsurprising that ticket prices for live matches are higher, as the entertainers or players are affecting a higher level of turnover than their German counterparts. As a result wages are higher.

I am completely for a return to standing; however I feel the aftermath of the Taylor report will be with us for several of generations yet. Germany has proved it can be done safely & most clubs would be licking their lips at the thought of having option to squeeze several thousands more fans into the stadium & onto the balance sheet.

The problem is that whilst many fans would support this, very few are prepared to get involved, commit time to the cause & make sacrifices for it. This is a great shame as we have seen with admittedly less complicated issues, such as the proposal of the 39th game that fan power can count.

Add to that the controversy there would be if a club seriously tried to propose this, following Hillsborough.

Were it to happen it should make it more affordable for supporters. No-one is suggesting one could go & watch Man Utd at Old Trafford for a tenner, however there would be no justification whatsoever to be charging £44 as QPR were our recent meeting at Lotfus Road.

The other key issue is obviously the ownership of clubs in the UK, compared to Germany. The 50% + 1 share model is the way forward & would happen if the global interest in the English game seriously declined. This would severely reduce the chances of predicaments such as those of Portsmouth, Rangers, Hearts, etc, occurring.


The only way this could happen is if the clubs & the authorities could come to an agreement to make it happen. The owners are unlikely to see this proposition being in their interests & the current authorities are too weak to even suggest such as thing to them.

The problem currently all comes down to supply & demand whilst fans continue to pay absorbent ticket prices, clubs will continue to charge it. Much of this stems from the crazy wages clubs pay for utterly average players, e.g. QPR having Rob Green sat on the Bench on £50k as week, this wouldn’t be possible in Germany.

Going back to original point, the matchday experience in England is vastly lacking against Germany, even compared to other sport such as Rugby Union & Cricket. Football clubs by in large like to quickly herd you in, provide mainly inferior food/drink & then herd you out even quicker than they herd you in.

When all is said & done football fans do get badly treated by clubs, but they let it happen & so like any relationship then this is the case the Status Quo will continue. That is unless someone makes a stand, says this not acceptable& stop going to games.


But then what would we all do on a Saturday

[Alexander Litvinenko]

.....
When all is said & done football fans do get badly treated by clubs, but they let it happen & so like any relationship then this is the case the Status Quo will continue. That is unless someone makes a stand, says this not acceptable& stop going to games.
....

The saddest thing of all is just how much the majority of football supporters accent things as they are and don't protest of stand up for their rights.

"That's just the way it is" and "You can't do anything about it" are such common cries when people can clearly see things are wrong, but supporters won't get together to make changes happen. The tribalism of the game means most are much more interested in having a pop at their rivals than getting together with other sets supporters - football really is the classic "divide and rule" situation.