Relegation the Reading Way

[Royal Rother]

You were holding up WBA as some kind of example that Reading should follow, that investment in the squad, to the tune of £30m, produced a squad capable of establishing itself in the PL.

I have shown you that's rubbish.

Please don't try to deny it.

[Hoop Blah]

The other things I'd be interested to hear from our American correspondent is which players exactly does he think will be raided by Premier League clubs?

At the moment I reckon we'd probably get to keep all of them.

Pearce, Morrison, McCarthy for starters...

McCarthy won't get sold in the summer when he'll have been out of first team action since the preceeding November.

Morrison and Pearce have no proven pedigree at this level whatsoever.

McCarthy may well have enhanced his reputation enough to have teams take a punt on him as promising cover next season. Liverpool, Villa and Spurs are just three clubs that will probably be in the market for a younger goalkeeping addition next year.

Other clubs will be sniffing around the likes of Pearce, Morrison and Karacan as squad players if they, as individuals in our first team, have decent spells between now and the end of the season.

[cmonurz]

You were holding up WBA as some kind of example that Reading should follow, that investment in the squad, to the tune of £30m, produced a squad capable of establishing itself in the PL.

I have shown you that's rubbish.

Please don't try to deny it.

RR, in recent months, you've totally lost your willingness to debate these issues fairly.

Don't presume to tell me what I meant.

I was talking about investment in the playing squad. West Brom spent £40m on new players in the Championship, having received transfer fees in. Historically Reading has received transfer fees in and not subsequently made significant investment in the squad.

West Brom are being held up as a good example of a model for Reading to follow. I'm making the point that that model involves spending money, something Reading as shown itself unwilling to do even when we have received fees in. If you want us to 'do a West Brom', you are supporting significant investment in the squad.

In contrast to West Brom's improving their squad with the money from their big sales, that site you posted shows Reading made a net income from transfer of just under £25m during our four years in the Championship.

[Hoop Blah]

You were holding up WBA as some kind of example that Reading should follow, that investment in the squad, to the tune of £30m, produced a squad capable of establishing itself in the PL.

I have shown you that's rubbish.

Please don't try to deny it.

Any club going down would need to invest decent money to go back up though wouldn't they? Just because net spend might not be that high (because the better players are cherry picked and bring in good fees) doesn't mean that significant investment isn't being made. Most clubs that go down have to she'd wages and sell top players to survive the fall in revenues.

West Brom had the structure and finances in place not to have to do that.

[Maguire]

RR I'd said they had spent £30m on players, that says £40m. No matter, the point is investment. Reading have also brought in significant transfer fees over the last few seasons but unlike West Brom, have not reinvested them to any great extent in the playing squad.

In 07/08, West Brom sold Koumas and Kamara, but used the money to bring in half a first team. In 08/09 they lost Davies to Villa for £8m, but spent a bit more than that on 6 new players.

They haven't established themselves in the Premier League by cutting cloth, they have invested money the playing squad.

Which is different to Reading this summer how? Mariappa and Gunter cost millions and Pog and Guthrie wouldn't have come cheap in terms of signing on fees etc. That wasn't funded by selling off assets.

[Maguire]

West Brom are being held up as a good example of a model for Reading to follow. I'm making the point that that model involves spending money, something Reading as shown itself unwilling to do even when we have received fees in. If you want us to 'do a West Brom', you are supporting significant investment in the squad

Again, how can you say Reading won't spend money when we did precisely that in the summer?

It's not even true to say RFC won't spend even when they get fees in - we spent 2 million sheets on Matt Mills IIRC.

[cmonurz]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

[Royal Rother]

You were holding up WBA as some kind of example that Reading should follow, that investment in the squad, to the tune of £30m, produced a squad capable of establishing itself in the PL.

I have shown you that's rubbish.

Please don't try to deny it.

RR, in recent months, you've totally lost your willingness to debate these issues fairly.

That's almost EXACTLY what I was thinking about you my friend!

[cmonurz]

West Brom are being held up as a good example of a model for Reading to follow. I'm making the point that that model involves spending money, something Reading as shown itself unwilling to do even when we have received fees in. If you want us to 'do a West Brom', you are supporting significant investment in the squad

Again, how can you say Reading won't spend money when we did precisely that in the summer?

It's not even true to say RFC won't spend even when they get fees in - we spent 2 million sheets on Matt Mills IIRC.

Come on. Of course I'm no saying we spent no money. But £25m net income from transfer in four seasons is not investing heavily in the playing squad.

[Royal Rother]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

What, in that they have wheeled and dealed more? (Lots more ins and outs...) I am trying here.

[cmonurz]

They have, for argument's sake, been prepared to spend as much on new players (and bought wisely, replacing say Davies with a number of additions) as they have received money in.

Each time we have sold one of our best players, we have trousered a lot of the cash.

[Hoop Blah]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

What, in that they have wheeled and dealed more? (Lots more ins and outs...) I am trying here.

It's not hard RR.

They reinvested in the playing squad more than pretty much anyone else has and certainly more than we have since relegation. Thankfully McDermott found a way to win an extraordinary amount of points between Feb and May last season that find ourselves where we are now.

[Royal Rother]

West Brom are being held up as a good example of a model for Reading to follow. I'm making the point that that model involves spending money, something Reading as shown itself unwilling to do even when we have received fees in. If you want us to 'do a West Brom', you are supporting significant investment in the squad

Again, how can you say Reading won't spend money when we did precisely that in the summer?

It's not even true to say RFC won't spend even when they get fees in - we spent 2 million sheets on Matt Mills IIRC.

Come on. Of course I'm no saying we spent no money. But £25m net income from transfer in four seasons is not investing heavily in the playing squad.

But you're talking historically - things have changed now. We KNOW why that happened in the past, SJM couldn't / wouldn't continue to fund the club.

I just don't think it is reasonable to compare what WBA have done in recent years with what Reading have done in recent years. The right time to compare is in 4 or 5 years time after a couple of relegations and promotions...

[Royal Rother]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

What, in that they have wheeled and dealed more? (Lots more ins and outs...) I am trying here.

It's not hard RR.

They reinvested in the playing squad more than pretty much anyone else has and certainly more than we have since relegation. Thankfully McDermott found a way to win an extraordinary amount of points between Feb and May last season that find ourselves where we are now.

But the discussion is NOT about what has happened historically. It's about the situation we are in now. It's a new regime, new funding.

The O/P referred to it being unforgivable that we were going down the same path this time (lack of investment) as we did last time. How much WBA reinvested in the squad compared to what we have done in recent years (under SJM) is utterly irrelevant to whether we can become a yo-yo club now.

[Hoop Blah]

It's a new regime that has said and shown that it will pretty much do things the same way.

January will show if that's true of course, and we have probably upped the anti a bit more than football inflation this season, but not massively so.

[Royal Rother]

It's a new regime that has said and shown that it will pretty much do things the same way.

Yes, the ethos will remain the same but as was repeatedly said at the time, that DOES NOT include being forced to sell players to fill financial black holes!!

From what I can see that means we will be doing things VERY much like WBA have done in the last few years.

[Maguire]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

What, in that they have wheeled and dealed more? (Lots more ins and outs...) I am trying here.

It's not hard RR.

They reinvested in the playing squad more than pretty much anyone else has and certainly more than we have since relegation. Thankfully McDermott found a way to win an extraordinary amount of points between Feb and May last season that find ourselves where we are now.

But this is irrelevant. We have new owners now, that's the whole point.

[Maguire]

Mags, I'm talking about transfer fees. West Brom will have incurred salary and signing on costs too.

Yes, we spent £5m or so in fees this summer. West Brom have been brought up and I'm highlighting their approach over the last few years, that has seen them grow into a top-half side, to have been totally different to Reading's.

Not totally different to Reading this summer. Different to previous summers perhaps but we didn't have AZ then which was half the point of the original comparison.

[Once were Biscuitmen]

Can you you forgive the powers that be inside of Reading football club for all the same mistakes from our last foray into the big time?
Playing in this league with little or no investment can only lead to one thing and that is failure.
We all saw it coming, it was so damn obvious, then why on Earth can`t so called intelligent people inside the club see it too?
I`m sick to death with the club I have followed for 40 plus years tonight. it was always a fantasy to become an established side in the top league way back in our elm park days, now we are on the verge of throwing away all the hard work for the second time in 6 years through rank bad management!

If you've supported the club for 40 years then you must recognize that establishing ourselves as a top ten championship club IS massive progress. It was a fantasy to get out of the third tier for half a century

The gap between the top two tiers in terms of squad value and total wages is the largest in history and to have a good chance of staying up after promotion requires significant expenditure and obviously ties the club into multi-year contracts.

However this expenditure is inherently risky as the drop in income upon relegation is such that the outlay required to have a 'good' chance of staying up may not be serviceable after relegation and so may endanger the long term financial health of the club.

For a club of our size and with a fairly sane approach to financial management it's almost a game that you can't win. If you game theory it out it's illogical to make that significant investment given the possible outcomes.

Of course clubs do survive in the premiership if they have an exceptionally strong championship team (us last time, West Brom), rich owners willing to subsidize the club (West Ham, QPR, to an extent Southampton) or if they are willing to risk the financial implications of relegation with massive debts (the list here is very long and depressing).

So the main complaint seems to be that our current owners won't give away their money with no realistic hope of making a return so we can all watch Premiership football next year. This is, I feel, a touch naive demand- unless there are any posters willing to buy the club and then lose money on it every singe year for the foreseeable future.....

[Hoop Blah]

It's a new regime that has said and shown that it will pretty much do things the same way.

Yes, the ethos will remain the same but as was repeatedly said at the time, that DOES NOT include being forced to sell players to fill financial black holes!!

From what I can see that means we will be doing things VERY much like WBA have done in the last few years.

Possibly, but I think it's unlikely we'd go quite as hard at it as they did. We've just gone up to the Premier League and not spent all that much on improving the squad (which obviously needed it) so I'm not convinced that we'd reinvest all in coming transfer fees post-relegation let alone spend more than we have this summer on the gamble of going straight back up.

Obviously we might do. But I think the point being made is that coming down and bouncing back isn't as easy or financially the most sensible and sustainable business model just because West Brom pulled it off.